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Tue May 03, 2005 5:47 am

Ok... I do know a few things about bugs, but i'm still in the learning process. My question is- What exactly is different & makes better a L/P front end? I've been able to check out a b/j because thats what i have. Most of the beetles up in Montana are post 65. I know they have a wider axle beam (tube to tube) but thats about it. Also, what caused VW to switch to b/j? What was "better" about it? even a pic of a LP front end may help. I know... its a pretty lame question, but its better than ignorance in my book.

Thanks!

Tue May 03, 2005 11:17 am

the balljoing is a stronger front end in stock form, and rides better on the street. for the rest, refer to the sticky thread at the top of the forum

Tue May 03, 2005 4:03 pm

Here's a good link to the parts diagrams for each of the front ends so that you can compare them side-to-side:

http://1800vw.bizhosting.com/0.suspension_ft.all.htm

As you will see, the main difference is how the wheel spindles attach to the trailing arms: either with "ball joints" that swivel or with the king and link pin setup which connects the two trailing arms and is more rigid.

I just changed my bj front out and took both types apart, so I am now intimately familiar with these parts.

Tue May 03, 2005 7:07 pm

Why do you say BJ is stronger stock Brad?

Tue May 03, 2005 7:11 pm

P.S heres a pic of one of my K+L assemblies dismatled.

Tue May 03, 2005 7:24 pm

HamburgerBrad wrote: the balljoing is a stronger front end in stock form, and rides better on the street. for the rest, refer to the sticky thread at the top of the forum
How is the balljoint stronger?

Tue May 03, 2005 9:35 pm

just what i've heard, i dont have too much experience with them. but one of the reasons the link pin is so popular is because of the extra travel you can pull out of it, aftermarket spindle options or stock spindle gusset kits

Tue May 03, 2005 10:01 pm

Nicksan wrote: HamburgerBrad wrote: the balljoing is a stronger front end in stock form, and rides better on the street. for the rest, refer to the sticky thread at the top of the forum
How is the balljoint stronger?
What brad meant is the spindle is stronger(biger DIA)on the BJ

Tue May 03, 2005 10:04 pm

rterfert wrote: the spindle is stronger(biger DIA)on the BJ
noted... was there any other reason?

Tue May 03, 2005 11:13 pm

I think the arms may be stronger too?

Aside from that, with stronger link pins and a few gussets K+L is many times stronger.

Thu May 05, 2005 5:37 am

so if i'm doing more of a "haulin a$$ on dirt roads baja" & not really increasing suspension travel, leaving the b/j on my '75 should be ok right?

Thu May 05, 2005 10:54 am

in order to haul ass, you need more travel to handle bumpier roads. but if you'll just be travelling fire roads, etc. that are decently well maintained, i think a bj beam could work well with decent shocks

Thu May 05, 2005 2:14 pm

what do you think of using these for the front shocks? http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D4076

Thu May 05, 2005 2:23 pm

too stiff if used in conjunction with stock leaves.

Thu May 05, 2005 6:01 pm

I know your referring to the front but I had something similar on the rear and they were extremely stiff
.

Thu May 05, 2005 10:52 pm

whats your reccomendations on shocks for near stock applications? KYB gas-a-justs?

Fri May 06, 2005 3:11 am

here is my take on the front suspension.
you have leaf springs that set your ride height. I.E. your leaf springs can be turned/adjusted to add enough pre-load to bring your front end up to ride as high as you want. you will be limited by your ball joints/king pin spindles as to how high you can go. lift spindles will help you out in the height department.
now then....since you have your torsion springs twisted how you like to give you the ride height you want the rest of your handling characteristics
I.E. compression and rebound should be handled by your shock.
if you mount up some crappy coilover shocks all you did was add another un-needed set of springs to your suspension and that will make things way too stiff in the front.

if you want to run coil over springs you have to spend the money to REPLACE your torsion leaves assembly with coil over shocks, through rods and the longer arms that normaly go with this type of set up.
all of which is expensive..(but will give you ooogles of suspension travel)...do it right with the whole kitten kabootle (fox or king coil overs)or stick with stock leaves and an emulsion shock (piggy back or remote resivior that works with your stock travel limits) and you will be much happier with your ride if you just dont have that much money to spend.
basically it is a question of budget, how much can you spend???
how much can you do your self???
with a decent welder and good imagination you can go far.

if you want to go fast on roads that have big trees on both sides of the road you have to consider this....whats to keep me from kissing that tree if i make a slight driving error? do you want it to be a few sheets of thin a** sheet metal or a full-out tube steel chassis?
so you want to keep your noggin in one piece eh? so put in a class11 roll cage from chenoth (do NOT get the latest rage knock off...ask what you are getting before you plunk down the green backs!) and be happy with your car. if you want to step up from there you can extend that cage all the way up front to hold a king pin front end and then you are looking at the sky as the limit......4inch over arms with three inch raised spindles.
or stock spindles and arms.....its all up to how much you can spend on the car.
i think all of us would be driving a 400hp trophy truck if we could.
the bottom line is decide just what you can afford before you get halfway into a project and go broke.
remember, its your car and YOU have to drive it......do what the hell you want to with it!

but basically those shocks you were looking at are CRAP. dont get cheap on your suspension. the shocks have a lot to do with how your car will handle/ride off road. get shocks that are tuneble...something you can adjust yourself at home to dial in how YOU want the car to ride.
if you get a shock you can tune/rebuild yourself it will be the last shock you buy for your travel range....if you up grade your travel range you might be able to sell of the old shocks in the classifieds but other than that plan on gettng a shock that will last the life of this car...a long, long time.

if you just want to beat around on logging trails see what you need to do to install a class11 cage, whatever front beam/arms and spindles you want
and some damn good front bumpers and tube supports for your front end.

other than that keep a good attitude and have fun with er 8)

my .02 for what its worth

Fri May 06, 2005 4:31 pm

:D niiiice! Thanks alot, that was worth a little more than $0.02 tho...(at least a nickel!) My budget is somewhat tight, but not incredibly so. Part of my decision making has to do with this- This is my first bug to modify, and i have alot of learning to do. Its not in perfect shape on the body & the pan needs a little touch up here & there. Like you said, this is going to be more of a logging road baja, not a " in the middle of the desert flying 20 feet in the air at 100+ mph" baja. I want to build one of those & start with a good body, but replace everything on it. That requires more money & more knowledge & more skill which, hopefully in a year or so i'll have.

So what are some of you guys using or recommend for a stock b/j set up? Can i help my bug for $200+/- ? I may go l/p a little later, but for the time being, i just need to replace the dead shocks i got & a 2 handfulls of other stuff. Thanks again for the pointers!

Sat May 07, 2005 1:05 am

i have heard people being satisfied with a KYB GR2 shock on the front end. that would sound like a decent temporary fix for a guy on a budget.
then drive the hell out of the car and see where you want to make your improvements.

Mon May 09, 2005 6:37 pm

ft_irwin_73baja wrote: here is my take on the front suspension.
you have leaf springs that set your ride height. I.E. your leaf springs can be turned/adjusted to add enough pre-load to bring your front end up to ride as high as you want. you will be limited by your ball joints/king pin spindles as to how high you can go. lift spindles will help you out in the height department.
now then....since you have your torsion springs twisted how you like to give you the ride height you want the rest of your handling characteristics
I.E. compression and rebound should be handled by your shock.
if you mount up some crappy coilover shocks all you did was add another un-needed set of springs to your suspension and that will make things way too stiff in the front.

if you want to run coil over springs you have to spend the money to REPLACE your torsion leaves assembly with coil over shocks, through rods and the longer arms that normaly go with this type of set up.
all of which is expensive..(but will give you ooogles of suspension travel)...do it right with the whole kitten kabootle (fox or king coil overs)or stick with stock leaves and an emulsion shock (piggy back or remote resivior that works with your stock travel limits) and you will be much happier with your ride if you just dont have that much money to spend.
basically it is a question of budget, how much can you spend???
how much can you do your self???
with a decent welder and good imagination you can go far.

if you want to go fast on roads that have big trees on both sides of the road you have to consider this....whats to keep me from kissing that tree if i make a slight driving error? do you want it to be a few sheets of thin a** sheet metal or a full-out tube steel chassis?
so you want to keep your noggin in one piece eh? so put in a class11 roll cage from chenoth (do NOT get the latest rage knock off...ask what you are getting before you plunk down the green backs!) and be happy with your car. if you want to step up from there you can extend that cage all the way up front to hold a king pin front end and then you are looking at the sky as the limit......4inch over arms with three inch raised spindles.
or stock spindles and arms.....its all up to how much you can spend on the car.
i think all of us would be driving a 400hp trophy truck if we could.
the bottom line is decide just what you can afford before you get halfway into a project and go broke.
remember, its your car and YOU have to drive it......do what the hell you want to with it!

but basically those shocks you were looking at are CRAP. dont get cheap on your suspension. the shocks have a lot to do with how your car will handle/ride off road. get shocks that are tuneble...something you can adjust yourself at home to dial in how YOU want the car to ride.
if you get a shock you can tune/rebuild yourself it will be the last shock you buy for your travel range....if you up grade your travel range you might be able to sell of the old shocks in the classifieds but other than that plan on gettng a shock that will last the life of this car...a long, long time.

if you just want to beat around on logging trails see what you need to do to install a class11 cage, whatever front beam/arms and spindles you want
and some damn good front bumpers and tube supports for your front end.

other than that keep a good attitude and have fun with er 8)

my .02 for what its worth

This is what I am working on right now, I think. I am a newbie, so much of this is greek to me. However, If I go with a new coil beam suspesion (they have 6" wider with 10" towers from mooreparts.com for 215) can I slap this right on the front of my 57 where the old beam used to be with some of those good shocks you mentioned? If so, can you reccomend a shock you would put with that setup with a link?

thanks and hope my newbie speak didn't confuse.