TheSamba.com :: View topic

Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:10 pm

I was thinking about putting a decklid stand off kit on my 69 bug.
I got questions:

Does it really made any type of different?
What if it rains while I'm driving home from work?

-I live in socal-

Help me out people.

Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:19 pm

i have decklid standoffs on my 66.....
the rain wont do anything, i didn't have any problems when it was pouring not too long ago. I would however cover the gap when I knew i wasn't going anywhere.
as far as helping to cool the engine, i'm not sure... when it's sitting though a bunch of heat does rise from there so i guess that can't be bad...
what i don't like is that it wont lock with the stand offs
i'm sure they sell some contraption to correct that though.....

peace!

Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:21 pm

The stand of kit works well in my opinion however others might beg to differ that it makes no difference. In my experience it has been useful and trouble free. My engine runs extremely cool. The rain is not an issue so long as all of your wiring is free of cracks which could let water in. make sure your dizzy won't let no water in I.E free of cracking also. Make sure no water gets in your carb my 1600sp has been running beautifully year round with the stand off kit and a louvered rain air filter. it went through this last L.A rain season with absolutely no problem.Plus it looks bad ass though some might say it looks like crap. Hey to each their own. Good luck with your choice

Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:36 pm

Stand-offs work well on racecars that do not run a fan, shroud or generator. If you have a stock motor, or even a moderately modified one, a closed hood with all the tin and seals in place will cool much better.

In the stock configuration, as you are driving, cool air from the outside is pulled in via the vents below your back window [or in the hood] and is sucked in through the fan in the back of the shroud. It circulates over the cylinder fins, past the oil cooler and exits out under the motor, over the exhaust and out from underneath the car behind you. If the engine compartment is not properly sealed [missing tin or seals], it reduces the negative pressure in the engine compartment lessening it’s ability to cool as well.

The pressure of the sealed compartment actually pulls air in through the vents. Although you'd think that a popped hood would be like a scoop, pulling air in, it does, but only when you are moving fast enough. When you are driving in stop and go traffic, or putting around a parking lot looking for a place to park at the mall, you aren't going fast enough. Ambient heat rises, and is reintroduced into the cooling system more through the sides of the popped hood than the top. Although with a properly sealed system eventually if you are sitting still long enough, that hot air will rise high enough to enter through the vents on or above the hood, but it will be mixed with enough fresh air that is being pulled in to help offset the extra heat.

If ya wanna look cool and show off those 48’s, then pop the hood on cruise night, but put it back down for your day to day commute and help you motor last a bit longer. As noted, rain may be a problem, or it may not. But why tempt fate.

One other thing, unless you have something that is worth bragging about, and I’m not talking about your JP Whitney chrome air cleaner covering your 34pict3, with matching pulley and coil strap, you shouldn’t be pretending your motor is something it’s not. You’ll not only embarrass yourself, but the rest of the VW community as well.

-jeffrey

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:03 pm

Wolfgang International sells what they call the "Hoodlum". It is some kind of plate you can put on to use your stock deck lid spring with stand-offs. My '66 has stand-offs, but I haven't got the Hoodlum yet so I don't know if it is worth anything. Somebody please chime in on this if they have seen this plate in person. You can find Wolfgang's ad in Hot VW's. So far they are the only ones I have seen who sell such a device. Would be nice if it works, kinda getting tired of using the wife's broom.

Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:26 pm

I ran a stand off for 2 years in the summer because my engine was heating up.. Once I solved all my cooling problems I stopped using it. Heres what I did this winter to drop engine temps.
1.Installed the missing "Hoover Bit" seal around the base of my oil cooler
2.Went back to stock valve covers
3.Installed corvair spark plug boots
4.Got a BMD pulley surpentine belt system
5.Installed missing rubber seals around the oil cooler exit duct
6.Started running Amsoil synthetic oil
Just doing this dropped oil temp about 10 to 15 degrees and I stopped running standoffs.

Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:28 pm

if you do not have large carburaters or a doghouse shroud you can use all(ALL) stock tin and not need a standoff for rear hood. if you run a serpentine belt watch your revs as the fan can come apart as the fanbelt cant slip at higher rpms and can come apart. this is why i use a stock type fan belt not serpentine type. welding and balancing the bent over tabs for fan vanes can help ,but even then no guarentee it will hold together. usually a power type bottom pulley should be used with them to slow fan speed down.

Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:24 am

jhicken wrote: Stand-offs work well on racecars that do not run a fan, shroud or generator. If you have a stock motor, or even a moderately modified one, a closed hood with all the tin and seals in place will cool much better.

-jeffrey

Would the aftermarket air scoop that fit above the engine lid on top of the vents help or hinder cooling?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/307519.jpg

Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:56 am

ottobahn wrote: I ran a stand off for 2 years in the summer because my engine was heating up.. Once I solved all my cooling problems I stopped using it. Heres what I did this winter to drop engine temps.
1.Installed the missing "Hoover Bit" seal around the base of my oil cooler
2.Went back to stock valve covers
3.Installed corvair spark plug boots
4.Got a BMD pulley surpentine belt system
5.Installed missing rubber seals around the oil cooler exit duct
6.Started running Amsoil synthetic oil
Just doing this dropped oil temp about 10 to 15 degrees and I stopped running standoffs.

Question item 6 are you running Z rod 10w30?

Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:54 pm

blue65 wrote: jhicken wrote: Stand-offs work well on racecars that do not run a fan, shroud or generator. If you have a stock motor, or even a moderately modified one, a closed hood with all the tin and seals in place will cool much better.

-jeffrey

Would the aftermarket air scoop that fit above the engine lid on top of the vents help or hinder cooling?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/307519.jpg

Got to disagree with the Jhicken ccommen. my experince is with a 61 sedan. I istalled a 1974 1600 DP motor with dog house cooling system (all stock 1974 stuff) at freeway speeds under load the engine oil ran hot and at high loads the engine would choke out (lose power). Note I was running the stock 1961 non louvered deck lid.

simply by propping open the deck lid about an inch or so at bottom, solved all the above problems.

the later motor uses more air, the fan is bigger as is the displacement. the engine at speed and high load (large throttle opening) would pull a vacuum in the engine bay, starving the engine of both cooling air and combustion air.
note VW did add louvers to the deck lid as they upped the air requirements with the later motors.

so if you have a solid deck lid and put in the dog house fan system, you really need to open up the lid, stand offs on hinges, or stand off on latch or convert to a louvered lid.

Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:07 pm

My comment was directed to a relatively stock motor [specific to the year], Putting a 1600dp motor in a car that originally had a 1200sp would be a significant change. You would require some extra cooling.

-jeffrey

Fri May 12, 2023 10:01 am

I do agree with all that is said about not using a stand off kit because the stock cooling works so well. However, the 1958 Bug I am restoring has a 2180 engine with a 1-1/2 exhaust header. The temperature, even without the hood installed , burned the paint off the apron before I realized it. This larger engine, with CB heads is generating so much heat at extended idle, that I had to make some modifications to insure that I don't burn the paint again at idle. Using a flexible fabric heat shield, self adhesive, glued to a piece of aluminum flashing, between the apron and the header, dropped the temperature to about 170, from "off the scale" on the paint surface, measured with a digital thermometer. This fabric, asbestos, is used under the rear engine tin as well. For extended Idle, I installed a bilge pump blower and a furnace bi-metal on-off switch, and blower motor speed control and 2" duct to the rear apron. All the parts are mounted to a bracket on the rear seat safety belt bolt on the passenger side. Overkill? Maybe. So....sometimes you HAVE to use a stand off kit to let the excessive heat out at idle. This engine has a remote oil cooler and fan as well. The header was first wrapped with asbestos wrap, but that was not even close to being enough.

Fri May 12, 2023 12:08 pm

For a stock engine, with the early cooling fan which is small, there is no need for the stand off lid.
Downside are water ingress, which may cause rust under the sound insulation material in the engine bay.
The Biggest downside is the ingress of leaves from trees, which will get sucked into the fan and clog up the cooling fins.
If want a stand off lid, at the very least add a fan screen, and periodically check it for leaves blockage
also they are kind of ugly.

Now if you install a late engine with the bigger fan, as Imdid (stock1600 DP from a 1973 Bug) you do need to provide more air other than what the solid deacklid provides. I found that at freeway speeds, uphill that the carb was being choked by the fan competing for the little air getting in with a solid decklid. I was losing power! So I removed the deck lid rubber seal, and propped the bottom of the deck lid open, not even an inch, and ran the same freeway uphill route, and no more choking of the carb. I then removed the stand off and repeated the test run, she choked again, then propped her up again and did the same run and she no longer choked on the uphill. Thus proving the bigger fan engines need more air than the solid deck lid provides. No wonder VW added louvers as the fan got bigger, engine got bigger, and more heat from smog control devices and tuning.

The nice thing about propping up the bottom is that no leaves can enter as with a hinge stand off, nor rain, and you can hardly see the difference, it looks better

I suggest if you want to get a small piece of wood maybe 2x2 inch or 1x1 inch depending where you place it, and tape it to the apron in a location that will prop the hood open an inch or so at bottom, then make test runs as I did. If you like it, then instead of a wood block make some standoffs using long screws and nuts, with a rubber cap,on the end, or rubber feet and attach two each at the holes where the stock rubber bumpers are on the apron, that is what I ended up doing after my wood block and tape test.

Looks better, and wont let debris in as the hinge stand off does.

Fri May 12, 2023 12:12 pm

My VW is newer, a 1971 Convertible with 1835cc engine and I've used lid stand-offs for 40 years. My VW also has a sedan lid with 2 vents as opposed to the 4 vents that VW felt a 1971 1600cc DP engine should have.

So works for me.

Fri May 12, 2023 1:14 pm

Thanks for the replies. I never thought about losing power from a closed lid! This car will never be driven in the rain, nor parked outside, other that car shows. My 72 with a 2110 never had a problem with the lid closed. This header is creating so much heat from the larger tubes because the CB heads are 2-1/2 inch ports I can try propping the hood open first, as I have done with other VWs.

Fri May 12, 2023 6:41 pm

I have been using stand offs for years without issues. I run dual carbs and my fellow VW friends like the look. No, I am not pretending my motor is something it is not. It is not stock. I am definitely not embarrassed to use them and the VW community here have no issue with my using them. In fact, several have done so as well !!!!!! So don't let the "purists" sway you one way or the other. It's your v-dub not theirs!!!!

Fri May 12, 2023 7:01 pm

1960vw wrote: I have been using stand offs for years without issues. I run dual carbs and my fellow VW friends like the look. No, I am not pretending my motor is something it is not. It is not stock. I am definitely not embarrassed to use them and the VW community here have no issue with my using them. In fact, several have done so as well !!!!!! So don't let the "purists" sway you one way or the other. It's your v-dub not theirs!!!!

Likewise dont let the unpure sway you one way or the other.

Ignore ALL advice, be it from a purist or the unpure! :wink:

Fri May 12, 2023 7:11 pm

Or, if buggeezer wants to be semi-pure. He could seek out the unobtanium 58 vert decklid and run that!

Many here will disagree. I ran a 2180 for a couple years here in Oregon, with a closed 67 decklid. The only time I ever experienced (possibly) air starvation, was when I ran out the top end of the 1/4 mile local race track.
The engine kinda fell over on the torque.

New engine is 2276 and I now have a 67 vert. decklid to go with it. :wink:
We'll see how that works out! :D

Fri May 12, 2023 7:41 pm

Wow, and I get ancy when I hit 60! You're a better man than me, for sure!!!

Fri May 12, 2023 7:50 pm

There has been talk in other threads that a tennis ball over the latch, keeping the bottom open a bit, works better than stand-offs. It's easily removable, and doesn't expose the engine to rain.

Of course, a properly tuned and tinned stock engine doesn't need any of this.