TheSamba.com :: View topic - Thinking out of the Box: Cooling the Motor

Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:35 am

I know alot of people would say If it aint broke then don't try to fix it...and that is true but I'm one of those folks that likes to tinker with things to make them more effiecent if at all possible. I just wanted to know if anyone has gone outside of the box and put together something different...

Has anyone here done something different to cool there motor even more then just the norm?

Does the porsche fan shroud work better than the Dog house?

Has anyone dumped the dog hous fan all together and put in an Electric fan?

Anyone using ram air cooling to assist in the cooling of the motor?

I'm asking because I have a couple of ideas that really aren't practical...well they are practical to me..maybe not the average Joe.

John

Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:43 am

Might be of some interest to you:

See:

""Think inside the box""

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123283

LOL

Kris

Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:44 am

OVERHAULIN67 wrote:
porsche fan shroud ?

Electric fan?

ram air ?

John

Several off roaders use the Porsche setup. It's expensive and looks great. Jake Raby did extensive testing on this setup ... it (in standard Porsche configuration) didn't cool as well as a stock (properly setup with all pieces intact) dog house shroud.

Electric fans assisted by ram air are standard on drag cars but these don't see time as daily drivers ... electric fan/ram air doesn't hold a candle to the stock setup.

Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:50 am

Quote: Does the porsche fan shroud work better than the Dog house?

Could it be worse? German engineers are the BEST in the world! Would U.S.A. or Japan build a car capable of that much H.P., high RPM, for racing applications, and then just say, "we don't need coolant, just let the air cool it" Hell no! I think if you follow the evolution of the VW/Porsche engine size and HP, and how the shrouding and cooling vents evolve along with it you'll get your answer.

Not a happy ending though...I don't want to spoil it for you...but theres water involved. :cry:

Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:01 pm

What would a cooler air charge do for a bug motor....I'm not talking 10 degress I'm talking 20-50 degree change in temp.

Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:47 pm

Ice cubes. Or at least a swamp cooler :P

Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:56 pm

make me feel stupid here, but what is it that makes the difference between a doghouse and a nondoghouse? I've been looking at pictures but for the life of me can't figure anything different.

Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:06 pm

I don't have any pics handy but in a nutshell, an early car has a smaller oil cooler unit, and the back side of the fan shroud is flat. the later "doghouse" style uses a larger oil cooler unit, making it neccesary to have a big hump on the back of the fan shroud, and some extra shrouding not found on the early style. Hope this helps?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:31 pm

that does help quite a bit, thanks

I have a picture in my head of what my shroud looks like (original from my 1500) and just couldn't find anything different between them, guess they're close enough to not know without actually knowing. if that makes sense

Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:36 pm

To clarify a little more on the doghouse, non doghouse issue, The earlier 36 HP fan shroud had the oil cooler mounted inside the shroud which blocked the airflow. The later doghouse stuck the oil cooler outside of the shroud between the shroud and the firewall. It uses deflectors to route the air over the oil cooler. If you look between the fan shroud on the driver's side and see some tin kinda mounted on to the shroud, it's a doghouse. If there is nothing then it is a 36 HP. Hope that helps a little more. It took me a while to figure that one out too.

Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:05 pm

Here are some pictures of the difference that I saw on another thread:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=906275&highlight=#906275

Also it's not just the 36hp that were a non-doghouse setup. All motors until the 1600 were fitted with the smaller cooler.

Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:18 pm

You're right, sorry. I seem to always refer to the earlier motors as 36hp. I need to stop doin' that.

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:53 pm

The thing about the 911 fan kit is that u have to remove the oil cooler on the case, and run a big external oil cooler, sometimes 2 depending on your climate, someone needs to make a oil cooler that will fit under the 911 shroud,

And im not to crazy(leading off the whole oil cooler issue) is the fiberglass shrounds available now, me and a buddie got a shroud from airkewld and i know he dosent make them, but they are not that thick and it had soem nasty cracks on it, the Second shroud we recived was much better(no cracks) but still dident come close to fitting. For some oddd reason, in order to run the oil filler u need to cut a big hole in the shroud, or make your filler on your valve cover...no thanks, not tryin to dog pete but come on, and dont even think about running it on a stroked motor, cause it dosent fit,one size dose not fit all,

berg makes different sized shrouds, still fiberglass(its being sent now) so i dont know how it fill it

Why dosent someone make a nice aluminum 911 shroud with shorter and wider oil cooler, that would be sweet, and no cracks!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:39 pm

Hauling67……cooler running, here are my tricks. I live in Tucson AZ. it is 111 today and my poor bastard VW brothers in Phoenix it is 115. This stuff is all inside the air cooled box. When setting up your motor, take those brand new cylinders and clean them off with MEK, which will leave zero oil on them. Mask them off and put about three coats of High Heat VHT black on them and tell the wife to go shopping and put them in your oven at 400 for 3 hours. Open the windows, the house is going to smell like crap. Make her feel bad, tell her you burnt a pot pie in the microwave, she will never know what you did. Take your stock piston rings off and put them on Ebay. Get yourself a set of gap-less piston rings. Piston blow-by is another way of saying FIRE, get fire out of the motor not into the motor. Take the time to know what your compression ratio is going to be. Have your pistons balanced and dished, this keeps you from using spacers. Keep your compression ratio streetable, high compression is high heat, you go faster but you pay a price in the long run. Now when putting the motor back together use cool tin under your pistons not the stock deflector plate. Put every bit of the stock sheet metal back on and a new breast plate and engine compartment gasket. Plug all of the open holes in the sheet metal up and get the best sparkplug boots you can. When I see motors with half the sheet metal missing, no boots on the sparkplug holes I just shake my head. It is like getting a brand new radiator in the wife’s car and then gluing 6 5 x 3 cards to it. Keep your spark advance in check, the sooner you light the fire the longer it is in the engine and the more heat sink you are going to get. The stock dog house cooler is killer good for 90% of all VW driving, but here is one thing most people over look. When rebuilding, the original foam pad around the cooler rots off, put a new one on. This keeps the air running through the cooler and not around it. My last trick is to wrap my heater boxes and headers with the high temp header tape. Keeping heat inside the pipes, keeps the exhaust gases moving at a higher rate. The faster the exhaust gases move from the motor the cooler you will run. Oh the fan…..keep that belt adjusted. Remember VWs were running around in the North African desert in WW II with 36 hp motors, small oil pumps and no cam bearings and they did O.K.

Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:10 pm

joe13 wrote: The thing about the 911 fan kit is that u have to remove the oil cooler on the case, and run a big external oil cooler, sometimes 2 depending on your climate, someone needs to make a oil cooler that will fit under the 911 shroud,

And im not to crazy(leading off the whole oil cooler issue) is the fiberglass shrounds available now, me and a buddie got a shroud from airkewled and i know he dosent make them, but they are not that thick and it had soem nasty cracks on it, the Second shroud we recived was much better(no cracks) but still dident come close to fitting. For some oddd reason, in order to run the oil filler u need to cut a big hole in the shroud, or make your filler on your valve cover...no thanks, not tryin to dog pete but come on, and dont even think about running it on a stroked motor, cause it dosent fit,one size dose not fit all,

Isn't the stock Porsche 911 oil cooler EXTERNAL...mounted to the side of the engine bay?
berg makes different sized shrouds, still fiberglass(its being sent now) so i dont know how it fill it

Why dosent someone make a nice aluminum 911 shroud with shorter and wider oil cooler, that would be sweet, and no cracks!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:52 pm

joe13 wrote: The thing about the 911 fan kit is that u have to remove the oil cooler on the case, , someone needs to make a oil cooler that will fit under the 911 shroud,

That cooler already exists. The stock doghouse type cooler will fit under the 911 type shrouds if you make an adapter that lays it down pointing towards the right side. This will place the cooler directly in front of the fan.

Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:53 am

Isn't the stock Porsche 911 oil cooler EXTERNAL...mounted to the side of the engine bay?

where did that come from KantDriveFast??

that may be something we do, make the adapter, but why wouldent the company that makes the rest of the parts make that as well

Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:03 am

joe13 wrote:
berg makes different sized shrouds, still fiberglass(its being sent now) so i dont know how it fill it.

Berg does not make fan shrouds.

Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:37 am

joe13 wrote: The thing about the 911 fan kit is that u have to remove the oil cooler on the case, and run a big external oil cooler, sometimes 2 depending on your climate, someone needs to make a oil cooler that will fit under the 911 shroud,

And im not to crazy(leading off the whole oil cooler issue) is the fiberglass shrounds available now, me and a buddie got a shroud from airkewld and i know he dosent make them, but they are not that thick and it had soem nasty cracks on it, the Second shroud we recived was much better(no cracks) but still dident come close to fitting. For some oddd reason, in order to run the oil filler u need to cut a big hole in the shroud, or make your filler on your valve cover...no thanks, not tryin to dog pete but come on, and dont even think about running it on a stroked motor, cause it dosent fit,one size dose not fit all,

berg makes different sized shrouds, still fiberglass(its being sent now) so i dont know how it fill it

Why dosent someone make a nice aluminum 911 shroud with shorter and wider oil cooler, that would be sweet, and no cracks!

There is a difference between a bolt on kit and fit to your specs kit. I have my shroud kit on a 2386cc engine with my oil filler mounted on my valve cover and it fits nice and works great. I took the time to sand and trim the shroud to fit nice and it does. I did however replaced the shroud that had cracks in it, Could of been shipping, i will know when i get it back, but regardless, I let everybody know what they will need to do to fit it on the car before they purchase.

Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:49 am

So...does the doghouse out perform the 911 Shroud? What I gather is that they both work well. Has there any comparison done on these?