TheSamba.com :: View topic - Motor Choice- Opinions Wanted

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:19 pm

I'm building a 1970 baja from the ground up. Will have 6 wider beam, 4" longer front arms, 3x3's in the rear, 930 CV's, 091 mod. trans, full length cage, and other details I'm probably overlooking at the moment.

I want to go with a type 1 engine, n/a with dual carbs (probably 44 Webers), and am thinking stroker.

Reliability and low and midrange grunt are what I need.

I run in the woods a lot, but plan on taking it to the eastern Oregon desert some on weekends. I've talked with several local engine builders about displacement. I had the opinion, after reading, that I would go 2110 because the 90.5 pistons seemed to be the most reliable option. The engine builders general opinion seemed to be to go with the 94's and even the 84mm crank, which of coarse, yeilds 2332.

I thought I would ask for opinions on engine choice from this knowledgable crowd.

I think I will pass the building on to people who do it for a living. I would like to do it myself, but don't know enough about the cam and case clearancing. I have read several books on the VW engine, and have yet to find stroker clearancing in print.

Thanks for your time,

Appreciate it,

Shep

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:42 pm

I'm pretty happy with my 2110, good low end torque and revs to the moon.I guess it's all in what you want to spend.It does have pretty high compression though and pings a bit if i run only 91 octane, so i put in a little leaded 111 FnL and it takes care of that.

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:16 pm

Ok here comes the flames.

Go subaru man!!

250+HP, reliable and cheaper!!

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:22 pm

I would go with a T4...

Daniel

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:38 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Don't really want to go water cooled, I have considered it though.

It seems I can get a turnkey 2110, 2332 type for about $5000, built with good components. I've only talked with one guy, Raby, and only briefly about the typeIV's, but $5000 would only buy a kit, and not the whole motor.

Hey Baja5, isn't that thing FI? What does this cost as compared to dual Weber 44's (say $750.) I've seen where you really like it over carbs.

Thanks again,

Shep

Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:54 am

I'm a street/ drag strip guy, not an off road guy, but I would go 2110. You can get 80-100,000 reliable miles out of this combo.

If you want a water cooled engine, get a Jeep
Good luck.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:07 am

I have been looking into building a 2007??? Its a 78x90.5. My buddy has this engine in his thing, although he is using dual 44 dellortos, I plan on using a single Zenith. He has no problems going up mountains, even pulling a trailer, cruises 80mph+ with ease. This engine will most likely go into my class 11 car, then onto my baja. Later,Mitch.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:04 am

The CB EFI kit runs $1795.00 plus shipping new,But i found mine in the classified here and paid $1200.00 shipped to my door.And i do like it better than the 44 webers i had. much easier to tune.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:50 pm

I'll throw in a couple opinions.

First if you are firm on staying with an A/C type I motor, build the biggest motor you can. The cost won't be considerably more going with a longer stroke or bigger cylinders. 94mm cylinders cool very well in my opinion. And, if you do go with a stoker crank of anything larger than about 74mm you will need to clearance the case and pay attention to the assembly anyway. Why not just go with an 82 or an 84mm crank and the biggest bore possible to yield bigger CC's? the only thing to consider is your rod ratio playing a role in faster wear. Your engine builder can assdress that by using the best length rod for the application. At this point of the game, the cost isn't drastically different. And, there is no replacement for displacement, especially when low RPM torque is an issue.

Now for my "real" opinion, I think a liquid cooled motor should be considered more closely. You car obviously has a chassis that can handle some horsepower, and you sound like you intend on building some. For that reason a liquid cooled setup might be right up your alley. Money wise, a liquid cooled motor will cost LESS than building a comparable type I motor. Lots of engine suppliers have liquid cooled turnkey options for under $5,000. Now, that is with a brand new factory built motor with computer managment and fuel injection. And in all honesty, you are looking at those kind of dollars to build a big stroker VW motor with carbs. Where is the logic in that? Another thing to consider is, you simply cannot build a reliable 150-200hp VW motor that runs like a watch. You will always live with those hiccups, question marks and tempremental notions a hot rod motor posses. With a liquid cooled motor the power is already there, and it's smooth and reliable. There is no need for custom machining, special fuels, spot on tuning skills or high end aftermarket parts. Just turn the key and go.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:15 pm

u can pick up a used subby or ecotec for less than 1,000 with hardly any mileage on them compared to what they can take. the kennedy adapter plate is another 1,000 and the ecu is another 1,000. now all this is give or take a few hundred but will still be alot less and alot more reliable than a a/c

Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:50 pm

good point,

except a little off on your prices. A typical stand alone computer is going to run between $1,200-$1,700. An adpater is going to hit your for about $400-$500.

With my Ecotec install I plan to have about $3500 total invested. That is with an all stock, slightly used Gm motor (29K). This setup will make about 170hp, have tons of usable torque and probably last longer than me. It is all computer controlled. No need to worry if my jetting is dialed or if I am running too much timing for soft sand. No problems with the dreaded "stumble" or "hiccup". The computer will handle that petty stuff...haha. Oh and if there is a problem, any GM garage can hook it right up to their diagnostic equiptment. I won't even have to pump the throttle to keep it from stalling when it is warming up. Just get in, turn the key and go. :wink:

SHMO

Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:28 pm

The obstacles I see at least for me going to liquid cooled, likely the ecotec, are the following:

Radiator mounting - I've been following the thread, by SMHO I believe

Electrical Hookups- I'm not a mechanic by any means, but I can usually make a VW run, don't want to lose this capability by going to a more complicated motor. It may be a misconception of mine that the liquid cooled would be more complicated.

This rig will be driven on and off road, but built for off road. Will the ecotec fit without cutting the rear firewall and bench area?

How would ground clearance be supposing I use the angled trans mounts?
As compared to type 1.

One of the best things about the VW in my opinion is that I can make it run when it breaks down out in the sticks, everything is simple enough that a dummie like me can figure it out. With these at least, got fuel, got fire, it will run. Sometimes not running top notch, but I'm not walking either. LOL

Are their any good books on the ecotec, I'd like to read up on them.

Thanks guys,

Shep

Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:13 pm

I have been following SHMOs' thread on the mounting of radiators and what not and I had to think "What about the intercooler as well, that would have to be a damn well planned lay out! Thats a lot of crap to be hanging off the rear end not to mention the heavy a$$ water cooled motor."
Then I saw this picture in the For Sale classifieds....
now picture this, a firewall right behind the seats that goes up to a hard top from that point (right behind the seats) forward to the windshield like usual. Now look at all the room from the middle of that trans forward that you have to play with for mounting a radiator and intercooler, plenty of room to get everything at the right angle if you factor in fans and building some form of sheet metal ducting (think forced induction) so that you may be able to find the air flow you need for cooling.
Wrap a cage around all that and then a little sheet metal along this sides so it resembles a baja and I think you may have a nice hot ride.
I would build the hell out of the rear cage and build motormounts off the cage and not rely on just the trans to hold that motor on there and other than a few little details I really think that would do the trick.
I am sure you could find room in the rear end for a fuel cell and maybe even room for a tool box/spare parts since all this work will be custom anyway, it could be worked in there.
If you want to go water cooled my opinion is that it really needs to be planned that way from the get go. Build a cage designed to hold that motor and cooling system as well as the people riding in it.
If you can lay the design out well before the first cut you are way ahead of the game, I have read a few threads of people going water cooled later in the game and it is nothing but comprimises on where to place stuff.
I know a lot of buggys run the radiator mounted sideways, ask them how well it works, I have no experience there....I am thinking a radiator mounted cross wise to the air flow is going to cool way better.

So that's my take on the H2O baja.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:57 pm

Shep wrote: ...It may be a misconception of mine that the liquid cooled would be more complicated.

How would ground clearance be supposing I use the angled trans mounts?
As compared to type 1.

One of the best things about the VW in my opinion is that I can make it run when it breaks down out in the sticks......

Shep

.............. I think there is a misconception here.
True that the water cooled might be a little more complicated to install, I believe, once installed and the bugs worked out, you won't be worried about breaking down in the sticks.
I, for one, have choosen the Subaru and not the Ecotec for my next Baja project. (I believe they are booth good engines, I just so happened to find an inexpensive Subie first)
800.00 dollars for the motor, 500.00 for the ECU and it was still in the '02 Outback, so I heard it run. (they tossed in the wires for no extra)
Another 1400.00 or so for adapter and misc. and I'll be in a 165 hp (no turbo, thanks), very reliable, smooth running engine that'll take us up and down Baja as well as the mainland, for about 2900.00.(trans not included)
As far as clearence, I've been assured, tilting the trans/engine 10 degrees
puts the bottom of the Subie STOCK oil pan, and STOCK exhaust, at the same ride height as the VW motor would be if it weren't tilted. They offer shorter oil pans AND shorter exhaust manifolds.......that coupled with a increase in height, due to suspension mods........it'll be good.
Good Luck.

Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:32 am

I cannot remark on all the ins and outs of every engine swap. But when dealing with an Ecotec you have every bit as much ground clearance as a stock VW, even without the angled mount. There is also no need to modify the firewall or rear parcel area.

In respect to the electrical connections, I am no electrical engineer either. I fully intend to buy a setup that I can plug in and drive. Sure, there will be a bit of wiring, but nothing more complicated than a simple wiring diagram to follow. The wiring harness itself will be ready to plug in to the computer and then on to the motor connections. That is just a matter of plugging them in.

There will be some fabrication to put a liquid cooled motor into a Baja. But once you have it finished, it's finished. The radiator location and plumbing is going to be the biggest obstacle I foresee.

Now I totally understand being able to "jerry rig" a VW motor to get it going when it breaks down. I consider myself pretty good at making due with what I have. On the contrary with a computer controlled H20 motor, you aren't going to be able to pull off a repair as easily. That is true. However, have you ever noticed how often guys HAVE to perform roadside rebuilds on a VW, especially a hot-rod version? It is pretty damn common. I am willing to bet 99% of us on this forum have had to do some sort of repair on our VW motors. But, I bet alot have never even looked under the hood of their late model car. Most of the time they're so dependable you don't need to. Some cars today don't even require major tuneup work until 100,000 miles. personally I have never seen a 150hp VW motor last more than a couple seasons, if that.

For a guy looking for moderate power, I feel a VW motor is the way to go. But if you truly want more than say 120hp, I think a liquid cooled swap is something to consider. It will save you dollars and headaches in the long run. It just might take a little longer to realize it.

Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:27 am

SHMO~

WATER IS A COMPENSATION FOR POOR ENGINE DESIGN DUDE.

P.S.S.
I would love to put a Subaru 280HP Version 7 Impreza WRX STI Engine in my baja.

_=VWBAJA70=_

Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:30 am

SHMO has a nice Baja but the king of Baja's is below my friends.

Enjoy

http://www.desertrides.com/features/vehicles/trophy_bug/index.php

_=VWBaja70=_

Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:41 am

that care barely qalifies as volkswagen

Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:52 am

Looks more like a volkswagen than your car does Brad. :wink:

But I agree, not much German engineering left in that kreger machine. But on the same token, I don't know of an off roader who would throw it out of bed for eating crackers. That car is insanely cool in my book, regardless of it's origin.

SHMO

Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:55 pm

my car has more german engineering than that monstrosity