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Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:40 pm

Need some big time advice fairly quickly please...

Took my 87 Westy (224k miles) in today for a check up as we're leaving on a two week road trip next week and the results didn't come out as I was even remotely thinking.

I wanted these guys to look the van over and provide a reasonable assesment of anything that looked out of whack. I also wanted them to look at a few specific things;

(1) oil pressure - i've had the idiot light/buzzer go off a few times so figured it was time for the pros to look things over.
(2) coolant drip from around the water pump
(3) cloudy exhaust on start up and through warm up
(4) rough idle
(5) smell of coolant in the exhaust
(6) idle stabilizer control unit

...and a few other minor things

While the results were complete, the biggest ticket item was the recommendation for a new/rebuilt engine. Maybe it is time for this to be done but it seemed like a bit of a rush to judgement. Along with this were a complete lack of data to support this recommendation.

Right now the price of a rebuilt engine (w/ my case) at this place is between $3,000 and $3,800 depending on how the heads look. The big bummer here is that I just spent $1,000 to have the head gaskets replaced (at a different shop) so that's money potentially thrown out the window (unless I go back to the other shop which I'm not sure I want to).

So that's where you guys come in. I could use some very specific questions to ask the shop about how they came to this conclustion. While I think this shop is reputable they weren't very helpful when it came to providing information. If anyone can help me out here I'd appreciate it.

Many thanks.
Brad

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:29 pm

Yesh, 224 is near the end. That's been a good life. Westy's are big boxes to push around.

What is your oil pressure? Mine is 25 idle warm and 50 running warm

What's your leak down? Mine is like 6%

Compression? Mine is around 110 and I have a low compression 1.9L

You rarely, if ever, see the numbers for a used engine as the vast majority are dead or weak, at best.

Mine is still fine and dry, but weak for an automatic Westy at 82 HP. I need more power!

Did they say why you need an engine? What values are low? $4K is not out of line for a fresh engine. What are you going to all get for that price? For me, I will not be replacing my engine with a stock one. I will either get a 2.2 based on my 1.9 or a 2.3 based on a 2.1 I have. That long engine is 3K and 4K resp. from GoWesty. I can't build it for that price with all the choice parts and experience they have. Then it has to be installed.

BTW: An engine is not a rush, rush job and then expect to go on a trip with it, right away. NO WAY. Not a good idea. You need to break it in. You need your first couple of services done by the engine builder / installer. Doing anything else is foolish and asking for trouble.

DON'T RUSH THIS.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:58 pm

If the engine runs OK without any serious leaks/ problems, and has been serviced regularly, I wouldn't do a rebuild just on a reccomendation due to mileage. You should be saving for the eventuality, but I wouldn't let it throw me into panic mode. I've seen several H2O Vanagons with 300k on the original bottom ends.
It's like asking the doctor, "Doc. How long is my heart gonna beat?"

Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:10 pm

What I am eluding to is that you must know what the test values are before you decide on a fresh engine. Can't base it on milage, of course not.

Then again 224 for a Westy is a lot miles.

You just had the heads done, I'd take it back and ask: WTF?

I am having a very bad experience with another car which a VW dealer repaired. They did not inspect enough and repair enough and sent it down the road. Just about 1000 miles later it suffered catastropfic engine failure with only 157K dealer serviced miles on it. It is awful as they want 2800 to fix with no warrenty and almost 7K for a fresh engine. Bastards. "We didn't do anything wrong." Ya, it is not what you did, it is what you didn't do. VW says it is a workmanship issue and they don't get involved. Suck bags...Can you tell I am angery? Point is: I won't take it back to the same place either, if I could avoid it.

So go read and gather information.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:32 pm

Let me see if I get this straight: 224,000 miles, leaks coolant, smells like coolant, puts out the fog while its cold, and has low oil pressure. I think spending alot of money diagnosing this one is wise...!? Come on guys its not for whom the bell tolls,for the wasser boxer the bell tolls. This wasser boxer lived a proud 224,000 mile life, start putting funds together for another engine or a conversion. The guy who did your heads? Maybe he thought it could be salavaged, hopefully he advised you of potential failure rate. Good luck and I wish I could be more optimistic but then I would sound like the guy who took your grand and tried to reseal the heads.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:57 pm

The coolant smell could be the waterpump leaking on the exhaust. The smoke when cold could be the mixture not right during the warmup cycle. The buzzer could be a sending unit or printed circuit plate. What I'm saying is that the gentleman needs ANSWERS before committing to the overhaul. That engine might have lots of miles left. He could overhaul it and STILL have the oil light/ buzzer going off.
I'd say lets hear the evidence, and I'll STILL say that if it runs OK with no major problems that it isn't a panic situation. You don't want to throw parts at the car- you want to FIX the problems. :wink:

Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:49 am

Yep, you need the facts before you decide to do anything....

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:44 pm

Phoned the shop back this afternoon to find the test results...

...and they actually didn't do a compression test, nor a leak down test. they are basing the engine evaluation primarily on the amount of smoke visible from the exhaust on start up, along with the high mileage.

should i be concerned that no diagnostics were done to guage the remaining life of this engine?

it sounds, from the comments above, that this may have bit the dust. performance has dipped in the last couple weeks but it seems to still have some kick in it.

if a new engine is in the cards, anyone gone w/ the 2.2L from GoWesty? Pros/Cons?

Very much appreciate everyones time answering all of these questions!

Cheers,
Brad

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:54 pm

bself wrote: Phoned the shop back this afternoon to find the test results...

...and they actually didn't do a compression test, nor a leak down test. they are basing the engine evaluation primarily on the amount of smoke visible from the exhaust on start up, along with the high mileage.

should i be concerned that no diagnostics were done to guage the remaining life of this engine?

it sounds, from the comments above, that this may have bit the dust. performance has dipped in the last couple weeks but it seems to still have some kick in it.

if a new engine is in the cards, anyone gone w/ the 2.2L from GoWesty? Pros/Cons?

Very much appreciate everyones time answering all of these questions!

Cheers,
Brad

They may be right, but I sure wouldn't condemn anybody's engine without compression and leakdown tests, as well as oil pressure readings. There are just too many other things that can cause these problems! Remember, the ENTIRE VEHICLE has 224K miles on it, not JUST the engine. Other components could be faulty causing these running/ performance problems. Anybody who has had a defective FI coolant temp sensor, for example, can tell you that.
I'm not saying you DON'T need an engine. But until the proper diagnostic tests have been made, you just don't know.
Something tells me that this shop isn't all that you believe it's cracked up to be. Seems like they're long on opinion, and short on diagnostics. Just my 2c. :wink:

Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:16 pm

I agree with Tram
I think they heard 224K and decided you need a new engine now.
I'm just a shade tree mechanic and I've seen well maintained high mile vehicles that ran well. Yes I would be concerned that age old basic tests weren't performed. Let me ask you this you have owned it for a while, you know it best, has the power decreased? is it starting to get noisy?

Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:11 pm

bself wrote: ...and they actually didn't do a compression test, nor a leak down test. they are basing the engine evaluation primarily on the amount of smoke visible from the exhaust on start up, along with the high mileage.
YUP, they just guessed. Not very inspiring, I would say.

Quote: should i be concerned that no diagnostics were done to guage the remaining life of this engine?
YUP. I'd be concerned because they have imparted ZERO information, but have primed you with doubt about your car. That does not do you, the customer, any good at all.

Quote: it sounds, from the comments above, that this may have bit the dust. performance has dipped in the last couple weeks but it seems to still have some kick in it.
As stated above, many other items can be causing you issue. Most of the parts are old. Which one is not working well, would be my question?

Quote: if a new engine is in the cards, anyone gone w/ the 2.2L from GoWesty? Pros/Cons?
I am quite in favor of that engine. Especially the 2.3 because it has a lot of price to performance. You need a core 2.1 for the 2.3 so, don't blow yours up unless you want to spend another $500 for a core. I'd love to do a Suby swap, but I am not sure I can justify the hassle and time involved.

Cons: Cost.
Pros: GREAT engine. EVERYBODY loves theirs. I am strongly considering it for my next engine, BUT, I will send them my, cleaned and inspected parts and insist on my own parts being used. I don't want some one elses under ground parts.

Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:23 pm

IMO, i think things have been running fine. that said, i also don't know the first signs of a dying engine as i'm a complete novice in this world.

i've had some exhaust issues which have been annoying if nothing else. since the last trip a couple weeks ago, there certainly seems like the power has dipped a bit but it's marginal at best (at least as far as i can tell). i've also experienced the oil pressure light/buzzer syndrome that many other folks seem to have run into. the shops response to this was to "listen to what my engine is telling you." this is fine but knowing there are some issues with the switches, this response seemed a bit out of touch.

at this stage it's a given that i'm going in for a second opinion at the shop i normally use. i got a good recommendation for the shop in question and they just seem to quick to judge w/out performing basic tests. that along with the fact that it was so difficult to get any information out of these guys. almost like a sales prevention team! if i need a new engine tell me why and how you got to that conclusion rather than "you need a new engine." at the end of the day they could be right on but i think i'll take my business to someone who actually wants it.

Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:07 pm

Get a second opinion. *Pay* for a "Pre-Purchase" evaluation, if you have to. That will tell you EVERYTHING that is good and bad about the car. It is how I weeded out bad vans before I bought mine. It seems ALL vans need something. It just depends on what they need. Doing this will get it out of the realm of a free checkup to a get serious and spend time looking at it. That way you will know. Cost is up to $100

Next some advice. Find a single shop (maybe two) and keep going back to them. Let them know you. Let them make some money. They can not do this sort of a check for free. Build a repore (sp?) Stick with the same good guys. They will know you and your car. That's what I do. I have been going back to the same guy for major work for more than a decade. We used to have our own repair biz and I just do not have the time to deal with cars anymore. I pay them to do the work I do not care to mess with. They know that and do a good job for me. Not the cheapest but they are very good. I do not have to worry about them. I just let them fix it and let me know if it is going to be extra expensive.

You ought to be able to find a shop in your area. Go visit http://www.vanagon.com and there is a list. There may be another list somewhere, I think. Someone else may be able to give you a pointer to another list of shops, if there is one. I am just not sure at this moment.

Best of luck.

Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:26 pm

I think I paid $60-80 for pre purchase check and they did a compression check among other things. That's just Wrong to say you need a new engine without the basic checks for major problems. They were right about 'listen to your engine', unfortunately they were listening to a faulty oil pressure waring system and not the engine. I am recently having that problem, and I think it is the circuit board (thanks to the one above who said that), as it started right after I removed the dash pod. I think they were looking for a fast 4k. I agree with most of above. 224k is getting up there, but not necessarily fatal. Losing a little power could be a lot of things..as simple as tune up parts? As far as smoke/vapor on warm up, well most new cars do that. The leak at the thermo housing needs fixed.
Anyway, take it somewhere where they actually diagnose the problem.

Glad to hear about the 2.3s, I am saving my pennies for one. I think that would be just about right power.

Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:47 pm

:D You may not need a new motor, but if you smell coolent in the exhaust, then you need to do something. When you shut off the van, the temperature of the water in the block raises for a while, and the pressure. If the "O" ring on the top of the cylinders is going bad, the additional pressure will cause some water to pass into the combustion chamber. Then when you start it up, it blows out and then clears up. Then when you get it back up to opperating temperature, it slowly seeps again, but it is barely noticable. The "dripping onto the exhaust" theory is a sound one, but this is another scenario.
You say it smokes a lot on startup.... is it right away, or does it have to heat up some. ?? Have someone start the van, and hold a clean rag in front of the exhaust (don't use something that has been washed with a perfumy detergent). Hold the rag there for a few seconds, then smell the rag.. If you smell a strong coolent smell, then you have an internal coolent leak, and at the least, you need the gaskets redone. :twisted: :twisted:

Get a second opinion from another shop, and before you have it fixed, go back to the other shop with the new estimate and try to make them pay. Unfortunately, most warantys are only good if you have the same people do it again, but if you try to slip in words like "lawyer" and "better buisness beauro" they might do something. Don't get your hopes up, but it might work...

Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:51 am

Quote: *Pay* for a "Pre-Purchase" evaluation

choose who does this carefully and see if you can be there...
I payd for this once on a car and was told the power steering was leaking... it didn't have power steering !! jeeze just thinking about it gets me steemed.

these guys wouldn't let me hang out with them so I went out in the parking lot where I could where I could get a view of the car...I didn't even see them looking at it at all !

anyway, be verry careful. good luck. when you find an honest mechanic, stick with 'em !

Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:25 am

I hear all the suport for this engine being salvagable and it is valid. Please take no offense. When a guy is paying for a compression test he probably is not going to do many repairs himself... I am a mechanic I can drive a car and get a very good sense of an engines state of tune versus its mechanical state. I can pull an ignition coil wire and crank the engine and get a sense of it compression. I couldn't tell you what cyl was low or why but I can feel and hear a problem. This comes from twenty years of hands on. I have made a few mistakes along the way and still do. These mechanics may just be good or bad do your own research. I hate guys that come in without a clue and say "I read this on the internet" five times out of ten they through good money after bad. If your engine has already been poorly repaired by a bad mechanic and has 200,000 plus miles. The engine is really needing major repair, ask yourself. Do I really want to invest $1000 into doing heads propery? Do check your oil pressure and make sure the warning system is working. It needs to work for any engine. My bet is the old heads came apart, orings failed water got into the crank and the bottem end is washed, and has low oil psi right now. Good Luck.

Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:27 pm

bself wrote:
if a new engine is in the cards, anyone gone w/ the 2.2L from GoWesty? Pros/Cons?

Cheers,
Brad

I recently had the 2.2 engine from GoWesty put in my '84 Vanagon standard (non Westy) and I love it. Plenty of power and I can cruise at 75 with reserve power and push it over 85 if I want (but I don't want to). If you have a heavily laden Westphalia I would recommend the 2.3 or the 2.4 since my van is usually empty and when it is loaded it's still a lot less than a standard Westphalia. My unloaded weight is 3500 lbs and the max i've loaded it to is 4600 lbs and the vehicle felt sluggish but was still better than the old 1.9 engine. I believe a standard Westphalia with no one inside starts around 5500 lbs. My total costs were around $ 5,500.00 which included about $ 500 worth of extras....so 5K for everything. That's the only drawback I can think of. I'd do it again and I would stretch for the 2.3 or even the 2.4.........

- Good luck

Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:17 pm

BavarianWrench.

After being around the car repair biz for some 40 years of a family shop, I have a pretty good idea too about if an engine is beat or not. They talk to you. But, nothing tells it more better than a few tests. Let's test the oil pressure to see what the bottom end is doing. Let's see what the leak down tests say. Let's take a lookie at the plugs. Let's see if pressure is way up in the cooling system. Let's sniff the oil. OK? We're looking at an hour here. That way the owner knows what we base our decision on. Pretty simple stuff. Then there is no question.

Maybe he needed a fresh set of heads to begin with. $1000 is sorta kinda high for not replacing the heads. I'd be miffed at this point too, if I were a customer. Nobody really can afford come backs. But, if you botch the job, fess up and deal with it. Many, many places are either so strapped or just plain bad, it seems. It is truly hard to find a honest bunch. Why do you think there are sooo, sooo many people asking questions????

Face it, he needs a few facts to go on before he steps up for an engine. It's a huge junk of change. Quoting my old man the German Master about other shops: "You are lucky to get a good job, no matter what you pay." So the guy wants some insurance before he makes the big decision. Pretty simple, I say.

Freakness,

I, like prolly you did, have been thinking and thinking about what to do about that toad of an 82 HP engine. It is simply not enough ponies to push a Westy around. I understand from GoWesty that the biggest engine you want to stuff into a DigiJet van is a 2.2. I guess it has something to do with the amount of fuel you can get out of the DigiJet. I dunno. Yes, I do know you can not make a 1.9 bigger than 2.2. So I should find out about that. I have an 89 parts van I can rob all I need to convert out of, if I want or need to.

Looking at the 2.3 it does not have too high a compression and seems a lot better than the 2.2, to me. The 2.4 is just too high in compression for me because there is not knock sensing. One load of bad gas and it is a goner. I read they are considering a 2.5 and I betcha they got a couple for test mules already. If they can make a bigger engine with less compression, I'd do it. They'd be a little less efficent, yet they would still have a lot of grunt. I am thinking of asking. But, I am not to that point yet.

I do readily admit that the engines seem to be pretty good. Better than some random place that sticks in a new set of Taiwan jugs and other cheapie parts and calls it rebuilt with new parts. That's why I don't trust those "new" engines some people just put in. I do not think they will last.

My $0.02, Walt...

Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:08 am

so the results from the compression test are in...

#2 cylinder is at 175
remaining three are at 135

i'm being told this is ok. just make sure you keep oil in the engine. we're going to be driving through some hot parts of the country and climbing up into the mountains.

do these numbers reflect a safe engine to drive on in these conditions?

was the original shop right on their diagnosis that a new engine is in the cards?