TheSamba.com :: View topic - Titling an untitled 1964 buggy pan -- HELP!

Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:09 pm

So, I got the buggy I've been wanting since I was a kid from my uncle back east. Problem is, it has never been titled, ever. Massachusettes didn't have titles until 1974, and my uncle bought this pan back in 72. We have a bill of sale from the original owner, who we tracked down and got him to sign one for us, backdated to 1972. My uncle signed one for me, but I'm in California.

So, what's the best approach to use for getting this pan titled? I want to avoid going the vin# tunnel swap route, so let's hear some other suggestions. Do I go try and title the pan and not tell them it's a buggy, or do I bring in pics (or the whole car) and show them what a pile of junk it is? Right now, it's just the pan with the body partially bolted on, no roll cage, engine bolted on but not connected or running. What do you all think?

If you want to see some pics of it, go here:
http://www.markwoodhead.com/html/buggy_build.html

and check it out. Then you'll know just what I'm talking about. The pan has already been shortened for the body (a Deserter series 1) and the weld work is first rate. My uncle used to design race car chasses for Autodynamics back around 1970, and did all the work. I sure don't want to replace the pan and start over.

Thanks for the help,
Mark

Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:16 pm

if you try to have the pan titled as a VW, the CA DMV will want to do a VIN verification. this will not work as you do not currently own a complete VW.

then you can do it as a specially constructed vehicle. i started this process for my car, but its an incredible hassle since mine is a rail. you will be easier since you have a bill of sale dating back to 1972.

Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:34 pm

Thanks for the quick reply, Brad.

Since I know from personal experience that any question posed to three DMV people derrives three different answers, does anyone else have more to add from their personal experience?

A local buggy/porsche kit car builder said to just try going in and titling it as a car first, then as a special vehicle build, then the tunnel switch. He said if I didn't like the answers I was getting, just leave and come back again when someone else is working.

Mark

Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:07 pm

I would try to get a mass title, first. Since they know when there titles started etc. Another thing about MA, titles dont seem hard to get. Their regulations all kick in when you try to register it. After you have the MA title, I would transfer to California.

Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:12 pm

Jowlz wrote: I would try to get a mass title, first. Since they know when there titles started etc. Another thing about MA, titles dont seem hard to get. Their regulations all kick in when you try to register it. After you have the MA title, I would transfer to California.

That's the ticket. Titled as a '72 bug in Mass ... then transferred to Ca.

Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:18 pm

You really don't want a reconstucted title...

Have Mass issue a "lost title duplicate"

IF this is too much work, Broadway title is a sweet deal at $150/ea.

It's been a few years since I lived in Cali -- not sure if they want state issued vins most places buggies titled as bugs are not legal as they're reconstructed vehicles.

Sometimes, I've done the "It's been in my family for years... we can't find the title, uncle Jeb lost it -- now he's dead" ... this has worked several times for us.

Tim

Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:30 pm

My uncle tried twice to go and title the car in Mass before I took it west. The first time they said he'd need a copy of the original receipt that the original owner had. The second time they suggested he get power of attorney from the guy he bought the pan from to go through the guy's 1971 tax records in the local county records department in search of a line item showing the registration taxes for that car. That's when my uncle gave up. I mean, come on...1971 tax records looking for a single line item entry for that car and we've got to get some guy to give us power of attorney to do it? You've got to be kidding!

So, that's why it's here in California and I'm looking to do it here. If I'm still at square one in another month or two, then I'll think about going back to the Mass RMV, reluctantly.

The pan was originally sold to my grandfather, who is dead now, and my uncle got in the will, and now has passed it on to me, so it is "in the family". Maybe that is the way to approach it, and don't even show them the other bill of sale. At least, the first time around. :wink:

Mark

Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:40 am

Broadway title... or "I inherited it from my dead grampa --- he had it sitting in a field for 40+ years" wold be the easiest routes.

T.

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:30 pm

Mark,

Great looking buggy and neat story & pics. Good luck with your project and the DMV.

<><
TC

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:34 pm

So, I went to the DMV today, and it didn't go well. They looked over all the paperwork and consulted their reference manuals and determined that since it resided in Mass all these years, it would need to be titled there first before it can be brought in.

I contacted Broadway Title, but haven't heard back yet. Their services page says they don't do kit cars. I'm not sure if that includes buggies or not, or if it just includes cars with custom frames that have no manufacturer serial number.

So, it looks like I'll contact the Mass RMV and see if I can do it there at another office than the last one we used.

Thanks for the help, and post if you think of anything else that hasn't been mentioned yet.

Mark

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:17 pm

Mark, have you considered doing a lien sale? i bought a 64 bug in 2000 the guy didnt have any papers so i looked through the phone book and called a lien sale office. 25 dollars and 30 days later i had the paperwork to cet the vehicle registered.

if you have any questions pm me i'll fill in any gaps for ya.

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:14 pm

Broadway doesn't care about anything... check out their on line application.

You sell the Vin to them.. they're selling it back to you.

T.

Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:41 pm

OK, so I'm following up on the lien sale idea. I looked into it, and it's pretty straight forward. They're going to do a VIN# search, then send a registered letter to the former owner, then place legal ads for the lien sale here in Santa Cruz and also in Massachusetts where the former owner lives, then in 31 days, I'll get all the title ownership papers I need to regsiter it.

The company I went with is called "Lien on Us" (www.lienonus.com), and they only charged $40 for it. They said to call them when the paperwork arrives and they'll walk me through it line by line and make sure it's filled out correctly. I'll let you all know how it goes in about a month!

Starting to get excited again!
Mark

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:27 pm

Right on, Mark there is always an easy out and not that expensive either.

Glad I could be of assistance to you.

Danny

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:01 pm

Learn something new everyday.

Dumb question... what happens if someone else with a title rises up and tries to register a car?

My thought would be when doing a pan swap etc. Many of us have 10-15 tucked accross areas waiting for a purpose. With 70s bugs it would be likely that we could have a titled pan... a newbie would do the lean on the "shell/dash vin" force the title... then a guy doing a buggy with the actual title would want plates for his forgotten pan.

Semi-long shot --- I've run into things kind of like this in the past.

T>

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:14 pm

The lien actually legally transfers ownership. They would be considered amply warned by having a registered letter sent to them as well as having the legal lien listed in the legal announcements of their local paper.

If they tried later to register it, they'd find out it's not theirs anymore. In my case, it was never titled to begin with, since my uncle's had it since before Massachusetts had titles.

Mark

Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:19 am

Interesting.

As a buggy, I'd still be pushing through a state-issued VIN number. It's a bunch off B.S.

I've known too many bad situations where an insurance claim is submitted .... then the insurance company realizes the driver was driving an altered frame buggy -- not the bug they had on record.

Let us know how the Lein works... I've never pushed one through this way.

ANOTHER OPTION I FORGOT ABOUT
Do you know any car dealers? In many states a licensed and bonded dealer can "force a title" their insurance covers the risk --- the license allows them to do the field work. We did this option a few years back -- I tipped the dealer $50 for the effort --- title and plates in 24 hours.

T.

Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:48 am

California law will still require me to get the title revised as a "specially constructed vehicle", but the initial title will already exist, so I can move forward. As it stands now, CA DMV is telling me to go back to Massachusetts to get a title and then bring it back to CA DMV and then start the specially-constructed vehicle anyway. And the MA RMV people are the biggest nit-picking jerks I've ever dealt with. They make the CA DMV people seem downright helpful by comparison.

So, either way I've got to go the "specially-constructed" route. And since they only give out 500 of those designations per year, I may not be able to get this thing registered until next year. Anumber of people contacted me telling me about the lien method. It's so common among towing companies, that the woman I talked to at Lien on Us said that they over a dozen per day. It's just the 30-day wait that sucks.

Mark

Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:53 pm

I'm interested in seeing how this pans out. I have a trike
that hasn't been licensed since 83/84. It has the pink
under SC, but I never got it transfered in my name..
Ca bites when it comes to non-ops and transfers, so I'll
be looking to see how your situation plays out.

Why do DMV's have to make things such a PITA to get
handled.. :roll:

Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:38 pm

OK, so here's the update. A number of people said they were interested in how this went down. So, I contacted a recommended lien sale company called Lien on Us, and found out it would be no problem to do. Here's the deal...

The car has to be on your property (property you own or lease) for some amount of time. Basically, you charge storage fees for the vehicle (between $1 a day and $25 a day). I charged $15 a day from the day it arrived at my house from Massachussettes, which added up to around $800 after the maximum 60-day charge period. The sale takes about a month, and they do a VIN search, contact any known previous owners via registered mail, and then list the sale in the legal section of some major paper somewhere.

The interested parties have 30 days to come forward and challenge the lien sale, which they can only do if they can prove ownership (ie, the title they said they lost or an original receipt from the dealership). If not, the sale comes to a close and you skip down the road to the DMV with your lien sale paperwork and pay the fees, plus taxes on the amount of storage fees claimed in your sale. Had I known about the taxes, I'd have charged even less for storage. Oh well.

So I went in with all the paperwork, and the guy ran it right through. No problems.

On another note, a number of people (including a DMV agent) had told me I would have to apply for one of California's 500 special vehicle permits that they give out each year in order to convert it to a dune buggy, but that was bogus info. Those special permits are only for wholly constructed custom cars and kit cars where you are NOT using an existing pan with a VIN number. If your pan has a VIN number, you're golden.

So now, my buggy is titled as a 1964 Volkswagen 2-door beetle. All I still need to do is schedule a time for the Sherriff to come out and verify the VIN number on a form the DMV gave me, and then pay the last $21 I didn't have on me (they don't even take ATM cards at the DMV!) and the car will be registered.

Thanks to dannyyucaipa for the Lien Sale suggestion...YOU DA MAN!

Mark