TheSamba.com :: View topic

Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:51 pm

The way I see it, if anything happens, it's because the moisture is coming from the other side of the sheet, hence the rust on the edges. I think a more conclusive test would have been with a completely coated hunk of metal.
This has been very intriguing since I have just read 8 pages straight thru. I'm going to be painting my warrior soon and since they use excessive amounts of road salt here in west Michigan I want to make it as rustproof as possible.
I have been sand blasting everything and putting a light coat of primer to keep them during storage till I decide to paint.

My question is, when it comes time to prep the primed parts will I be able to just use a product like metal ready and paint or will I have to remove all the "duplicolor automotive primer" with more sand blasting or what not??? Is the duplicolor going to mix well with the Por15 or will the metal ready take care of that worry by etching thru it?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:09 pm

Miguel Arroyo wrote: My sight is pretty bad, but a few of the products seem to be doing a good job. :D Se debe poner el material antes del bondo?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:25 pm

ORANGECRUSHer wrote:
I have been sand blasting everything and putting a light coat of primer to keep them during storage till I decide to paint.

My question is, when it comes time to prep the primed parts will I be able to just use a product like metal ready and paint or will I have to remove all the "duplicolor automotive primer" with more sand blasting or what not??? Is the duplicolor going to mix well with the Por15 or will the metal ready take care of that worry by etching thru it?
The rattle can primer, or most any primer but epoxy primer is absolutely the WORST thing to put on it to preserve it till you paint. The thing is, primer absorbs moisture, just like it absorbs paint. A good product is 2 part epoxy primer like Ditzler DP-40. there may be better stuff out there now.
Por-15 is made to ONLY be put over bare metal. The POR- 15 would be okay, but it is not the most workable product, like for sanding, etc. Nor will it come off very easily from where you don't want it.
Al

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:49 pm

I also just read the entire thing straight through, and I think some others need to as well. Look at the pictures on the first page, and the ones on the 8th page. The Eastwood looks the prettiest on that last page, but look at all the bubbling. Both the POR and Rustbullett are stained from the rust the the chlorine broke loose, but they are not bubbled like the Eastwood and Masterseries are.

This is another post where VW people are living up to their cheap reputation, and an area where, I for one, would not accept cheapness over quality.

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:17 pm

69doublecab wrote: ORANGECRUSHer wrote:
I have been sand blasting everything and putting a light coat of primer to keep them during storage till I decide to paint.

My question is, when it comes time to prep the primed parts will I be able to just use a product like metal ready and paint or will I have to remove all the "duplicolor automotive primer" with more sand blasting or what not??? Is the duplicolor going to mix well with the Por15 or will the metal ready take care of that worry by etching thru it?
The rattle can primer, or most any primer but epoxy primer is absolutely the WORST thing to put on it to preserve it till you paint. The thing is, primer absorbs moisture, just like it absorbs paint. A good product is 2 part epoxy primer like Ditzler DP-40. there may be better stuff out there now.
Por-15 is made to ONLY be put over bare metal. Quote: The POR- 15 would be okay, but it is not the most workable product, like for sanding, etc. Nor will it come off very easily from where you don't want it.
Al Quote:

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree, it is the easiest paint that I have

ever applied and the best looking finish from a brush that I have ever

seen :!: and who wants paint to come off when you apply it? When

properly prepped it becomes part of the metal(figuratively speaking

of course)

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:33 pm

hpw wrote: 69doublecab wrote: ORANGECRUSHer wrote:
I have been sand blasting everything and putting a light coat of primer to keep them during storage till I decide to paint.

My question is, when it comes time to prep the primed parts will I be able to just use a product like metal ready and paint or will I have to remove all the "duplicolor automotive primer" with more sand blasting or what not??? Is the duplicolor going to mix well with the Por15 or will the metal ready take care of that worry by etching thru it?
The rattle can primer, or most any primer but epoxy primer is absolutely the WORST thing to put on it to preserve it till you paint. The thing is, primer absorbs moisture, just like it absorbs paint. A good product is 2 part epoxy primer like Ditzler DP-40. there may be better stuff out there now.
Por-15 is made to ONLY be put over bare metal. Quote: The POR- 15 would be okay, but it is not the most workable product, like for sanding, etc. Nor will it come off very easily from where you don't want it.
Al Quote:

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree, it is the easiest paint that I have

ever applied and the best looking finish from a brush that I have ever

seen :!: and who wants paint to come off when you apply it? When

properly prepped it becomes part of the metal(figuratively speaking

of course)
You have to disagree with what part?
I think I was saying the same thing. POR 15 sticks very tightly and you do not want to put it on haphazardly with the idea that you can get it off very easily later on. Isn't that what you are saying?
(quote: "it becomes part of the metal, figuratively speaking.")
Yes, I think we are on the same page on this.
Make no mistake: This stuff is NOT temporary protection!
Al

Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:04 pm

I read "not the most workable product" as not being easy to use.

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:27 pm

hpw wrote: I read "not the most workable product" as not being easy to use.
Especially because when you quoted me, you CUT THE SENTENCE IN HALF.
the full sentence was:
"The POR- 15 would be okay, but it is not the most workable product, like for sanding, etc. Nor will it come off very easily from where you don't want it."
I am simply saying is is not very good as a temporary cover till you finish the work. (I cannot think of any good temporary cover paints.)
I agree, it is quite nice when brushed and flows out and dries with a good gloss that is hard as rock. Which is what it is- moisture cured polyurethane. It is damn near the same thing as powder paint after it dries and cures.
I use it on all kinds of under hood and under chassis stuff where it gets a real test of its strength.
So, I agree with you. If I wasn't clear, I apologize.
NOW, back the the main subject:
No, do not use rattle can primer. better yet would be to not sandblast at all till you are ready for the POR-15, or use epoxy primer.
Al

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:34 pm

69doublecab wrote: hpw wrote: I read "not the most workable product" as not being easy to use.
Especially because when you quoted me, you CUT THE SENTENCE IN HALF.
the full sentence was:
"The POR- 15 would be okay, but it is not the most workable product, like for sanding, etc. Nor will it come off very easily from where you don't want it."
I am simply saying is is not very good as a temporary cover till you finish the work. (I cannot think of any good temporary cover paints.)
I agree, it is quite nice when brushed and flows out and dries with a good gloss that is hard as rock. Which is what it is- moisture cured polyurethane. It is damn near the same thing as powder paint after it dries and cures.
I use it on all kinds of under hood and under chassis stuff where it gets a real test of its strength.
So, I agree with you. If I wasn't clear, I apologize.
NOW, back the the main subject:
No, do not use rattle can primer. better yet would be to not sandblast at all till you are ready for the POR-15, or use epoxy primer.
Al

:oops: No need to apologize to me, my bad,

Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:26 pm

This is how they looked when I took them off the roof.

I used cleaner and an SOS pad to get rid of all the surface rust. I primered both panels. The rust will eat through and it will be easier to see. Some of the places are stained red and gives it the impression of rust. There is a lot of bubbling.

Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:26 am

great thread , thanks for testing all of this stuff . pictures are great but you have first hand experience with all of them . if you had only one car and you had to keep it forever which do you think would outlast the others after seeing what 2 years of abuse does to them . i'm most interested in master series and eastwood but i'm willing to drop the cash on whatever is best for my bug (a lifetime member of my family)

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:09 pm

Regarding POR-15, I sprayed epoxy primer, then acryclic-urethane topcoat over the underbody and wheel wells of my bus, then, over a year later, I decided to put a coat of grey POR-15 over it and the front floor. All that I did was clean it, scuff it up real good, blow it off, and spread it on with a foam brush. It has been sticking really well because it was put on a very clean and roughened surface. When put on a surface that is not real clean and/or roughened, it can peel of like tape.
I have never used POR-15s marine clean and metal ready products because I think that they are a rip-off. With bare metal, including new sheet metal, I've used a product called Metalprep79, which has acid in it and has to be rinsed off with water before any of it has dried. The metal is then dried with compressed air. It only costs $15 or $20 for one gallon, and it cleans and conditions bare metal. For extra protection before painting, I've sometimes followed it with a coating of Galvaprep.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:40 am

Lee,
Have you ever tried those metal converter products? Also what was the final outcome of your project? I'm a a metal shop teacher and very interested before I start my 66 Westy body restoration?

One more thing what do they use on the funky green replacement body parts for the VW's? Anyone out there know?

Linda

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:39 pm

I'm not Lee but I think that you must mean "rust converter," such as Rustmort. A rust converter changes mild rust (iron oxide) to a primer. It only works on light rust and cannot be used on bare metal, and it is not a sealer like POR-15, so it must be painted over.
I like to mechanically remove rust, whenever possible. On all four of my buses, I had to replace the rockers on each side, and other panels on each one. A fiberglass patch over a hole in a sealed panel like an outer rocker would only be a temporary fix, so if you want it to last, replace the panel. You can get away with a fiberglass patch on a single-walled flat panel like a front floor.
Regarding replacement panels, the ruddy-colored packing primer or enamel must be removed from the sheet metal, and the metal conditioned (the metal is left smooth at the factory) and painted; that includes Gerson's green panels.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:55 am

Campy,
So you are saying the site http://www.klassicfab.com/ with the funky green panel’s only cover the metal with a non rust proofing product? I've used the rust converter and like it for rust yes it still needs to be painted but what is the best rust proofing paint our there?

I am a welder so I would never use glass unless my gas or MIG welder is broken, or I'm not home. But reading this post has not shown me what is the best product for bare metal. I used to sell paint in a hardware store for 10 years before I went to school and there was a red primer that Rustolium copied but I have forgotten what that material was. Anyone out there know? It is probably a carcinogenic by now.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:31 am

Linda Grunthaner wrote: Campy,
So you are saying the site http://www.klassicfab.com/ with the funky green panel’s only cover the metal with a non rust proofing product? I've used the rust converter and like it for rust yes it still needs to be painted but what is the best rust proofing paint our there?

I am a welder so I would never use glass unless my gas or MIG welder is broken, or I'm not home. But reading this post has not shown me what is the best product for bare metal. I used to sell paint in a hardware store for 10 years before I went to school and there was a red primer that Rustolium copied but I have forgotten what that material was. Anyone out there know? It is probably a carcinogenic by now.

I think the green stuff is just a shipping primer and made to be removed or top coated before using. I do not know if it will just wash off with lacquer thinner.
Rustoleum originally had a fish oil formula. I doubt it does anymore.
At one time there was a red paint for tin roofs that was some tremendous stuff. I think I got some from the terne metal manufacturing people.A lot of these rust paints are moisture cured urethanes. the finished product is similar to powder painting, which is a very tough, durable product with good adhesion. POR-15 is an acronym for Paint Over Rust. It apparently is a good product.
I've used some Rust Bullet on the underside of my Vanagon, and it is peeling off in great chunks. Not very effective.
Al

Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:05 pm

Regular primer does not seal out moisture. Some people have said the metal-etching primer will protect the metal. After cleaning and conditioning bare metal, I've spayed a couple of coats of epoxy primer over it, which seals out moisture. If you are not going to shoot your primer filler over it within two days (it sets up too hard and smooth, after that, for the primer filler to stick very well), the epoxy primer will have to be scuffed up and more sprayed over it, then the primer filler sprayed on it within two days.
I've sprayed Krylon enamel over the bare replacement rockers on one of my buses to protect it during storage; of course, I will have to remove the enamel when I start getting the body ready for painting. The cheap rattle can paint is, also, good as a light coat to use as a guide coat.
Gerson has already stated that the green primer on his panels needs to be removed and the metal conditioned. He might start conditioning the panels. Manufacturers of sheet metal panels have been irresponsible by not including a notice telling people to remove the packing primer and to condition the bare sheet metal. The ruddy-colored packing primer is about the worst primer: you can almost scrape it off of the smooth metal with a thumb nail. Some people have left it on the inside of panels like outer rockers when they installed them, which leaves the inside unprotected from moisture.
You can condition bare metal mechanically and/or chemically. Something like Metalprep 79 will etch and clean the bare metal, and light rust will dissolve away.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:02 pm

Campy,
That is interesting. I never thought of the metal I had on the inside of a weld.

Your comment "You can condition bare metal mechanically and/or chemically. Something like Metalprep 79 will etch and clean the bare metal, and light rust will dissolve away." Are you saying Metalprep79 is the way to go?

Thanks,

Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:00 pm

Linda--
There are a number of products out there and different ways of doing things. Go to a couple of auto paint stores and get some opinions; do the same thing at a good auto body repair business. Now is the time to learn how to do it right. I've done four old buses and I read some material and asked questions, to go along with what I already knew from having done body work, over the years.

Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:36 pm

[img]C:\Documents and Settings\User\My Documents\My Pictures\feb 2008 356 RUST converter damage\feb 2008 356 RUST converter damage 013.jpg [/img]

I have had a horrible restoration event. I used Eastwood Rust Converter on my bare metal 356 underside a few months ago, topped off with their Rust encapsulator. we notice last week that rust was poking thru the black paint. some scraping showed massive heavy rust alll over the new areas. it has crepted into seams that months ago still had vergin factory seam sealer onthem, we removed sealer,a dn found perfect bare metal. this East wood COnverter corroded my car, right thru the seams.. I called Eastwood,a dn was told that they have been having some problmes with this, adn that i should have top coated the converter after 12 hours rather than a couple days. the instruction do not say this. they say IF you top coat to do it "after 12 hours or when dry". Eastwood told me the labling will be changed.

this sucks, the car was on a rotissorie, bare metal resoration, adn now all the seams in one of the most critical areas is $%&*-up.

East wood suggested I strip everything off. yet I got htis stuff inside cavities, and it sent rust creeping into seams.

in some areas, I scrap off the over coat,a dn the metal is not rusty but very dull gray, come back a couple days later, and I have red heavey rust all over. other areas rust is pushing thru the top coat.

My second car, a kelmark GT kit car also got this treatment several months back, and its pan and frame are rusting.

any ideas?

i have attempted to post a picture of my 356 with the rust, you can see it hase gotten to seams that were peeled back today.

any ideas are appreiciated. this was a very rust free dry car until it got the eastwood treatment.

this sucks[/img]