TheSamba.com :: View topic

Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:41 pm

i'm looking to upgrade the brakes on my 65 square. i've decided to go with a dual circuit system and 4 wheel discs. several rear disc kits are available, and i'm wondering if anybody has had experience (good or bad)with any of them. price is somewhat of a factor, but i've learned that it's always cheaper to do it right with quality stuff the first time. besides, the most expensive kit i've found is a lot less expensive than replacing my car (or my head)
i know that upgrading the rear brakes will upset the bias, so i'm also considering replacing the front calipers with something larger. i've thought that it may be possible to use a vanagon caliper, since they're presumably stronger. i've seen porsche and wilwood calipers done, but i'm not sure about the extent of work involved in adapting them.
i've also considered; if i can lock up the wheels, i need wider, grippier tires before brake upgrades will even matter.
all this is probably irrelevant anyway. i pay attention when i drive, don't speed, and maintain safe following distances. hence, my insurance is cheap , and i haven't been in an accident that was my fault since i was 17 and owned the road. i just don't like the hassle of disc brakes, and want to be able to stop quickly when the kid chases his ball into the street.
i'd appreciate any input or relayed experiences regarding disc brakes

Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:07 pm

I converted my 70 beetle from 4 wheel drums to 4 wheel disc brakes. I used the CB Performance's kits including the equalizer valve. I drive it everyday 70 miles and I would not go back to drums with all the rain we have in South Florida. At the time I also replaced the front bearings, all 4 rubber hoses, the master, the reservoir and went to synthetic.

Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:09 pm

Read this thred. Its going in that direction.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145474

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:28 am

thanks, miguel, i hadn't thought of an equalizer valve. that should even things out without getting too complicated.

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:07 am

Have you just considered changing/upgrading the fronts over to stock vw front discs as vw did with the square in 66. :D

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:49 pm

krusher wrote: Have you just considered changing/upgrading the fronts over to stock vw front discs as vw did with the square in 66. :D

I retained the stock front discs on my'67 Square and used CB's roto hub kit with e-brake on the rear...the kit is not type3 specific but the only mod that had to be done was to lengthen the e-brake cable a bit. I was also able to use the stock MC with no front to rear bias issues...maybe i was just lucky, dunno. This system is more than adequate for any situation which may arise as far as I'm concerned.

I re-drilled the stock rotors for Porsche 5x130 and had all the rotors cross drilled and studs were used as well. I run 16x7 rims with 195/45 & 205/55 and my car has impressive stopping power in most any conditions and handles like it's on rails. Car is down 2 in front and a combo of inner and outer out back to get the stance I wanted, just a slight rake.

The only real problem encountered was the axle nuts losing torque in the rear....we figured that the rotors were "green" and shrunk a bit with the heat of use and over time....had to replace one rotor, it had torqued enough on the splines to damge the rotor slightly so better safe than sorry. I don't think the rotor would have needed replacing if it had been caught a little sooner. I would suggest that if anyone uses this setup that you check for correct torque periodically. But that is really a no-brainer 'cuz anytime you R&R any axle assembly you should check it for play/torque after some road use.

I am not saying that CB's kit is problematic, far from it. I think this is the most bang for buck in a brake "kit" as it's priced below $400. CB's products are first rate by and large, and they stand behind what they sell. I have heard of possibly one or two others having this problem, but I believe it was a very limited # of rotors, and you know $hit happens sometimes...It certainly hasn't stopped me from buying CB's products.

Most people would love to have "big" brakes with multiple piston calipers simply for the bling factor, but do you really need 8 piston ceramic brakes on your 'dub...I think not. My ride stops just fine, thank you.

Now, that being said I will be putting a 4 piston Wilwood setup on my type4 powered Fasty eventually...come and see it at the Invasion next year *crosses fingers* Martin and the DDB crew have just finished laying the ground work after a year of effort :D Will be picking it up around the first of the new year.....stay tuned.

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:53 am

Quote: Have you just considered changing/upgrading the fronts over to stock vw front discs as vw did with the square in 66.

actually, my 65 has discs on the front already. it's a usa spec later 65 model. 4 bolt all around. i don't know if it was converted to discs or built that way at the factory. but it does have the single circuit m/c, which is on it's way out, in favor of the later dual circuit. does this negate the need for an equalizer valve; i mean, is there some sort of bias adjuster incorporated into the dual circuit cylinder?
brent- do those 16x7s rub at all,or embiggen tour turning circle? i imagine you've spaced them out a bit . if my math is right, your wheel/ tire combo is a little shorter than stock in front, and less than half a cm taller in the rear. sounds like a good combo to me.

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:18 pm

brent67 wrote: ..the kit is not type3 specific but the only mod that had to be done was to lengthen the e-brake cable a bit.

I have run into the same issue. The sheathing for the brake cable is too short. I have fab'd an extender that runs from the body tube to the end of the cable about 4" long. How did you overcome this issue? Where did you get longer brake cables made?

Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:46 am

cip1 carries the e-brake cables for type 3 ( swing and IRS ) I don't know if they'd work with the rear disc kit. i'd bet they would, but i also lose every time i go to the casino... :cry:

Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:43 am

FWIW, I am running stock Type 3 brakes with DOT 5 silicone fluid on my Square along with 195/55R15 Front and 205/55R16 Rear tires and I can still lock up all four tires in a panic stop. No problem!

Rear disks really aren't necessary unless you are worried about fade from repeated hard breaking during racing or something like that. Of course if you want them for the BLING, go for it. Just don't expect an increase in braking ability. The rubber is the limiting factor already with the stock brakes. It is just simple physics.

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:24 am

jaransonT3 wrote: FWIW, I am running stock Type 3 brakes with DOT 5 silicone fluid on my Square along with 195/55R15 Front and 205/55R16 Rear tires and I can still lock up all four tires in a panic stop. No problem!

Rear disks really aren't necessary unless you are worried about fade from repeated hard breaking during racing or something like that. Of course if you want them for the BLING, go for it. Just don't expect an increase in braking ability. The rubber is the limiting factor already with the stock brakes. It is just simple physics.

You are correct. I got 2 wheel disc because I am a lazy bumb and do not wish to periodically adjust the drums (had I only put discs up front). Also rain, we get so much in south Florida I felt it made sense (still do). I should point out I drive my car 70 miles each day year round :D

Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:06 pm

you cant base everything on tire size. If you have a wide tire, doesnt make it sticky. If you have a pretty good tire, and maintained stock brakes, you should be fine. I found the stock brakes ok, but nothing great. i had the same size as jarason, but they were economy tires, they would lock up all the time with stock brakes. my newer tires are much stickier.

Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:45 pm

right, the rubber compound is critical. a softer tire will hold better in cornering and braking, but will also wear faster, and be slightly less fuel efficient (more friction). personally, i'm not interested in bling, more for the ease of maintenence. i also neglected to mention my plans for some wider, grippier tires.

Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:28 pm

What maintenance?? When you have the car juscked up to adjust the valves, reach over and adjust the rear brakes. At the most, it adds 10 minutes to the time you are under the car. So that is 20 minutes a year, to adjust the rear brakes. And if you start out with decent shoes, you shouldn't ever have to pull the rear drums.
You will spend more time than that farting around putting the disc brake kit on, and then end up with no emergency brake.

Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:17 am

Russ Wolfe wrote: What maintenance?? When you have the car juscked up to adjust the valves, reach over and adjust the rear brakes. At the most, it adds 10 minutes to the time you are under the car. So that is 20 minutes a year, to adjust the rear brakes. And if you start out with decent shoes, you shouldn't ever have to pull the rear drums.
You will spend more time than that farting around putting the disc brake kit on, and then end up with no emergency brake.

Like I said I am lazy :shock: , and by the way the kit from CB Performance has emergency brake :D

Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:40 am

For the T-3??? or is it for a T-1. There is a big difference.

Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:06 pm

My car has been running 4 wheel discs now for about 15 years. Stock fronts and 914 rear discs and calipers. This on a.....2800lb Type III. My setup uses the mount that SCS sold several years ago. I also bought the e-brake cable mount they sold. I think it's still laying around somewhere :? . A couple reasons I never bothered with it, but not relevant here. My brakes have worked very well, but I still think they could be better. At this point the rears do not seem to be working as well. I do believe they need rebuilt or replaced. I understand the 914 calipers are getting a bit expensive and the 914 guys are going to other measures. I am thinking in my case to go with stock Type III calipers on these rear brackets(same mounting space). Reading your comments, I see there are 2 different sizes of caliper pistons. Now, I'm not sure which size to go to. I'm not really sure what size the 914 caliper has, but I'm sure someone here, or on the 914 forum will tell me :D . Anywho..........my .02 cents. Oh...and I'm running 17x7 1/2's all around. 205x40's-225x35's. 3 notches down in the front with slight fender rubbing, probably going back up a notch. Rear fenders have the inner roll flattened(plenty of clearance)........Norm

Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:51 pm

These are it: http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=714

Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:59 pm

localboymark wrote: brent67 wrote: ..the kit is not type3 specific but the only mod that had to be done was to lengthen the e-brake cable a bit.

I have run into the same issue. The sheathing for the brake cable is too short. I have fab'd an extender that runs from the body tube to the end of the cable about 4" long. How did you overcome this issue? Where did you get longer brake cables made?

Mark, my bad...you are right, the cable sheathing needed to be extended and not the cable itself...the fix was something similar as you describe.

And yes, if I were to leave the stock steelies in place I would have had no worries leaving the stock '66/later brake system intact. i am a great believer in the abilities of the designers of most everything that went into our ACVW's...I readily admit they are very much smarter than myself =D> However my rear drums were borderline for further use and I was going to Porsche rims as well so the choice to go to rear discs just made more sense to me. Ease of maintenance and availability of parts were also a part of that decision. And yes, there was a bling factor involved as well as I'm sure you realize that most porsche rims give a good look at the braking system you are running....I had the rotors cross-drilled and did some low key detailing of the componenets. it really does look nice and I get positive remarks all the time from felow 'dub peeps....even the water-cooled folks 8)