TheSamba.com :: View topic - Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:38 pm

Ok, for the splitophiles here, name this mid 30's US made (Big 3 maker) car here that is told to have had a major influence on the design of the beetle, and note it is also a rear engined car, and carefully study the lines on the car, this could easily be the archetype for the beetle, anyone know?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=242443

Gary

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:53 pm

Hanomag... a german manufacturer :wink:

Made some wartime cars, halftracks and trucks.

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:02 pm

Cool Silver Car..

Hanomag-1300, 1299cc, 1939-1943

Look at this old photo in the rear?
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/sa/41leEPkwWH-234947renLkwpeuPkwOstfront_Baydeww2.jpg

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/phanomag.htm

:wink:

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:06 pm

vwoval.com wrote: Cool Silver Car..

Hanomag-1300, 1299cc, 1939-1943

It is not the same car... (lid engine compartement, suicide doors)

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:06 pm

Nice car as well, but its not the same car as the one I posted, and the one I posted is over 5 years earlier than the Hanomag, and again its by a big 3 automaker, with lines I think even closer to the beetle, note the drivers handle where it should be and bumper overriders on the pic I posted. More guesses?

Gary

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:17 pm

Humm an Airflow... Not sure but I thought Chrysler built it. Wasn't that the first unibody car built.

http://www.airflowclub.com/

-Craig

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:31 pm

Desoto SE ?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:39 pm

We have a winner!!! Craig and PJ-, yes, its a 1934 Desoto SE Coupe (Chrysler Airflow). The front is a bit off from a VW but its amazingly close to the lines of first beetle.

Gary

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:19 am

I'd like to throw my hat in the ring and suggest that there were other car designs closer to VW's home which influenced the styling direction of the Beetle, prior to the emergence of the Airflow.

Case in point, the work by Hungarian aerodynamicist Dr. Ing. Paul Jaray (1889-1974), led to the Tatra (located in Koprivnice, Moldavia (aka Nesseldorf, now part of eastern Czech Republic) Model V570, designed in 1931:

And followed in 1933 with the next V570 proto:

...Air-cooled, rear-engined cars. Never went into series production but led to the archetypical Model 77, in 1934:

Czech rival, Skoda also pieced together a Beetle-like prototype in 1932:

The Dr. Porsche Type 60 came along in 1936:

Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:22 am

Military '39 Hanomag Type 13H.

Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:10 am

Brezelwerks wrote: We have a winner!!! Craig and PJ-, yes, its a 1934 Desoto SE Coupe (Chrysler Airflow). The front is a bit off from a VW but its amazingly close to the lines of first beetle.

Gary

So is there a prize forthcoming or do I just bask in the glory of supreme car knowledge :-}

LOL, As a substitute prize, I'll take one of those Telefunken repro's you are making.

-Craig

Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:16 am

Its interesting to see just how conventional and 'of the times' the beetle was in the mid late 30's. Many other cars had similiar styling and aero lines.

It was always so different style wise in its main era the 50 - 70's, but I guess that was more due to it being a relic from the 30's than breaking any new ground. Still it shows a good idea sticks around.

-Craig

Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:29 am

Thanks for all those additional pictures, you can clearly see the influences that surely had an impact on Komenda's final aesthetic design for the beetle. Whats more surprising is that the earlier designs from a metal fabrication perspective were likely less costly to produce and much quicker to tool up for than the production beetle when you study the shapes, as alot of these pre-beetle body panels were flatter and with less reinforcement details. I can't recall the exact dates of Porsche's (and others) prewar visit(s) to the states to study the automakers here, but IMO I can say the side profile of the DeSoto is probably has the closest resemblance to the production beetle, whether or not it could claim that it had the main influence factually is another thing however.

Gary

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:37 pm

That car is indeed a chrysler.

It was called "Chrysler Air flow "and was a hell-of a car and way infront of the big 3.

The Mercedes is looking real close to that first beetle prototype but that is normal because the first ones were built in the same factory.

greetings .

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:57 pm

I can't agree that the 1934 Airflow was a major design influence on Porsche. He designed this Zundapp Type 12 in 1931:

See this link: http://www.ltv-vwc.org.uk/wheelspin/Ws_dec_2002/Beetle-early-history.htm

I think it's more a matter of a lot of people thinking along the same lines then, just like now a lot of people are thinking retro.

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:24 pm

Quote: I think it's more a matter of a lot of people thinking along the same lines then, just like now a lot of people are thinking retro.

Not necessarily. The design brief for the People's Car was so well defined that the engineering required to achieve the finished product (super simple, air cooled, aerodynamic, lightweight, cheap, etc.) really led all the various firms working on prototypes towards the same conclusion.

In my professional work, when I am in design mode, I know what it'll look like once the technical requirements and budget are known. Projects tend almost to build themselves in this way.

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:37 pm

What I meant was that many designers around the world were thinking about rear-engined, air-cooled cars at that time, even if they weren't working on Hitler's commission. Porsche wasn't working on Hitler's request when he designed the Zundapp.

And I don't think he was influenced by the Airflow because he did the Zundapp before the Airflow was introduced.

Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:54 pm

An other interesting aspect in this is that Porsche acctually stole the idea with a separate floorpan with center tubeframe and individual suspension from the early 30's prototypes by Skoda... Volkswagen was even sued about this.

Volkswagen had by then already grown that powerful so they basically ignored the small Skoda company's attempt to get any royalties... Well today they are the one and the same company.. (in paper)

Sorry couldn't find the article about this now. If you are intersted I can search for it and let you know the details.

Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:00 pm

From the perspective as a past and a current freelance industrial/product designer, I can assert that the Zundapp amongst more than a few other cars "of the times" certainly shared some design commonality here and there, especially when simple aerodynamics and shell fenders on a small coupe are being designed or marketed. So, to some degree the overall theme of the design gets copied over by different makers, especially if one of those designs becomes a "hit". The Topolino certainly did its best to be a beetle replica as the beetle's success rose. Hyundai amongst a few others today are notorious for copying successful car design lines, nothing new. If a german designer at the time spotted that Airflow you can bet they spotted some serious design magic in that side profile, and there is NO design magic in that Zundapp profile, it looks like the typical prototype.

But, my eyes probably spot lines and curves very quickly from being in the design profession too long. So, its when you move beyond the subjectivity of what you think you see, as I hinted at earlier, it actually takes analyzing these overall lines and curves of the entire car, and in this case the picture of the Airflow caused me to do a double take when a friend of mine sent me that picture. I mentioned earlier the bumpers and location of the door handle features, but its more important in particular note the careful very refined shape of the both side window glass, and in particular the rear quarter glass, the Zundapp is nowhere near the eventual beetle design from a side profile view, however the Airflow is nearly exact in window corner radii even if it is not quite as tall, and so is the distancing/balancing of the glass shapes with the top body line of the car, incredible! If someone made transparencies of the cars in black and white and overlaid them on top of each other, aside from the aspect ratio you could notice the similarity in the windows, roof line, and fenders, bumpers, etc.

Anyways, when folks what attracts me to beetle and the hobby, I can explain that its simply the aesthetic design of the car itself. I can actually (no surprise to many) go into some substantial detail on the design cues of this car which attracts many of us to this fine little car. But, when you just stand back and assess its design sometime, note the carefully and intentionally placed lines, features, etc., there is near a perfect (literally) balance between the profile of the car and shape/s of each the individual body parts down to the small mechanisms. There are FEW cars today that have achieved this balance. For designers, and then for consumers, for the most part people know a beautifully designed object when they see it, the beetle is one of these objects.

Particular to mention here though, as I probably stated before, probably the "perfect" beetle design would of been a "reverse Zwitter", meaning a split dash with an oval rear window (which was available in kit form only), but unfortunately costs of the car were driving design decisions (moving to elliptical curved glass while doing a cost reduction on the car overall). The oval rear window is actually a more refined and balanced proportioned shape for the backside of the car than the "split" window, just drive behind one at some point and you'll know. The split window screams vintage and I love it, but the oval window screams great design and modern, important selling features.

However, the beetle design really "jumped the shark" as we say here, in 58 with that horrible dash design change again and more importantly when VW enlarged and added the rear square window (increased rear view safety). The square window completely changed the balanced aesthetic quality of the car. It wasn't too bad in 58-59 since it was a smaller square window, but when it was enlarged again @60 the car really lost its look forever. So when safety driving laws started to change the beetle design, the car lost its "IT". Worst, IMO, was in 68 with the upright headlights, all hope was lost forever. Thats how I see it folks, again just my design opinion.

Gary

Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:20 pm

Got to agree with you re: the headlights. I wouldn't buy a 67-up because of that. Those glassed-in headlights are just beautiful.