TheSamba.com :: View topic

Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:38 am

Check this out:

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/auctionresults/default.asp

Select "Volkswagen" and search. If my '57 sedan is worth $31k, I'll sell it TODAY.

Some people paid some stupid prices for those cars. Of course I haven't seen any of them personally, but the prices seem WAY high to me. Really makes me wonder if truly uneducated (about VWs and the hobby/market) people with money to burn are out there. If I ever do sell one of mine though, I now know where I am going to list it....

I think those results are ALL VWs BJ has sold, not stuff from the recent, televised Scottsdale auctions....

Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:43 am

johnshenry wrote: Select "Volkswagen" and search. If my '57 sedan is worth $31k, I'll sell it TODAY.

31K + 8% buyer's premium don't forget. crazy money.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:36 am

Crazy money is right........there was nothing special about that '57 except a "paper trail".............which for that kind of money, someone could fake very easily. :wink:

Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:51 am

I believe they also had to pay Arizona sales tax !

Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:07 am

If anyone is serious about listing with BJ ... get it in one bag soon. The spots for this years auction were filled by June of last year. Craig Jackson loves cars with paper. A birth cert, a photo album build book, and any period correct dealer literature makes him drool. There's a lot of talk about those (boomers of course) buyers that are disenchanted with Wall Street's performance since the tech collapse ... they see the unchecked rise in prices paid at BJ ... and will buy virtually anything "collectable" in hopes of that elusive 30% return at the next BJ auction. BJ really has nothing to do with the community ... with the exception of (right now) a sure fire venue to sell vintage units at artificially inflated prices. At some point even BJ will see a pull back.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:34 am

I'm not 100% certain but I don't think they have to pay state taxes until they transfer the title in that state :?: Though auction purchases maybe taxable, dunno??

But ya, BJ cars is kind of like Pebble Beach. Just being accepted means it's been inspected and no obvious kockie stuff has happened to you car. People enter Pebble Beach to have a certificate saying: Yes, this car is authenticated as the real thing, so in the end is worth more because of it. To a smaller degree, BJ is kind of in the same lines but more to help buyers out of sketchy cars to make them feel safer.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:39 am

In Arizona, you do not pay sales tax on used car purchases. They use the values from the Gold Book to assign a tax based on the original purchase price of the car.

This may not apply to auctions, as someone else mentioned.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:26 am

BJ's policy on the sales tax ... if you purchase it there and do your own transport (or drive it away) you pay Az. sales tax. To avoid the tax you must provide BJ with an official bill of lading from an authorized ICC transport company showing a shipping destination to somewhere other than Arizona ... you are then considered an out of state sale. Have no idea how this trues up with Arizona law.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:40 pm

Again - I will sell my 55 vert to the first person to give me $50k.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:56 pm

The baby boomer generation (via end over end family inheretences) will be driving the collector car market for years to come now for sure, it will likely even get more silly than it is now, especially as there aren't enough really nice cars to feed this growing market, and there will be (is) enough (silly) cash in this niche, its just an entirely different market from this hobby.

I know a half dozen folks nearby building personal museum quality collections of all car makes, and each one of them is including (for posterity I guess) the best quality 50's beetle they can find. The only question for many of us is at what price would any one us be willing to sell a car which often becomes "a member of the family"?

Also, I can't recall exactly, but it was about 10 years ago when I believe Money magazine once indicated the best investment car one could own (in terms of return on investment percentage) was any vintage beetle convertible (no year was specified). Would be interesting to find that article again.

Gary

Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:55 pm

i will sell a BUDDY HALE restored split for $100,000!

Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:09 pm

Brezelwerks wrote: The baby boomer generation (via end over end family inheretences) will be driving the collector car market for years to come now for sure

I'm not so sure. The youngest boomers are at retirement age, and that tends to close the checkbook pretty fast. Maybe there's 10 more good years, but the real question is what cars they are gonna want to own.

If you figure that a guy in his early 50's is the prime buyer (old enough to have the disposable income and young enough to feel confident enough to spend it) then, if history holds, that guy is gonna want the cars he grew up with. If I'm 50 now that means the first cars I drove were late 60's and early 70's models which is closer to the end of the VW era than the beginning. Give it another 5 years and those 50 year olds are gonna be almost too young to have a personal connection with a beetle.

It's just like Model T's and A's. They were what every 50 year old messed with when I was a kid because that was the car they learned to drive in, but that market is deader than a carp because those guys are now too old to keep that market going. We're *almost* at that point with the 55 Chevy crowd. 60's muscle is where it's at.

I think if I were buying for investment I would be looking at the early Datsun 240Zs and some of the early japanese imports. Heck, maybe in 10 years the auction will be full of cherry AMC Pacers and Ford Pintos. Maybe the Samba gallery will be full of Buddy Hale restored 1977 VW Rabbits in a few years.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:57 pm

coad wrote: Brezelwerks wrote: The baby boomer generation (via end over end family inheretences) will be driving the collector car market for years to come now for sure

I'm not so sure. The youngest boomers are at retirement age, and that tends to close the checkbook pretty fast. Maybe there's 10 more good years, but the real question is what cars they are gonna want to own.

If you figure that a guy in his early 50's is the prime buyer (old enough to have the disposable income and young enough to feel confident enough to spend it) then, if history holds, that guy is gonna want the cars he grew up with. If I'm 50 now that means the first cars I drove were late 60's and early 70's models which is closer to the end of the VW era than the beginning. Give it another 5 years and those 50 year olds are gonna be almost too young to have a personal connection with a beetle.

It's just like Model T's and A's. They were what every 50 year old messed with when I was a kid because that was the car they learned to drive in, but that market is deader than a carp because those guys are now too old to keep that market going. We're *almost* at that point with the 55 Chevy crowd. 60's muscle is where it's at.

I think if I were buying for investment I would be looking at the early Datsun 240Zs and some of the early japanese imports. Heck, maybe in 10 years the auction will be full of cherry AMC Pacers and Ford Pintos. Maybe the Samba gallery will be full of Buddy Hale restored 1977 VW Rabbits in a few years.

My 2 cents is that it is hard to compare VWs to other types of cars. early VWs have an almost cult following compared to other cars. They were a very popular selling car as well. If anything American could come close to these two aspects, I'd site Ford with its mustang. In similar ways both cars have had a good revival as well with recent versions of the car.

What about the Japanese markets. I know in the past they were willing to pay a lot for VWs mid to late 90s? Is this still going?

Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:57 pm

2splits wrote: Again - I will sell my 55 vert to the first person to give me $50k.

good luck..

Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:14 pm

pipster wrote: 2splits wrote: Again - I will sell my 55 vert to the first person to give me $50k.

good luck..

Why do you always have to talk shit?

Have you ever even seen my car? Open your mouth after you see the car in Hot VW's in a few months.

If that later vert can go for that price, then I damn well know mine would not be far out of that range at that kind of auction.

I took my car to two shows last year and had very serious offers for over $35k for the car. I said, no thanks.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:42 pm

Good points to consider Coad, there are surely some cyclical and longer term risks in these markets without question. I was just at my friend's auto body shop seeing him restore a Model T from the ground up for a customer, said he didn't understand the job really, "the owner will be $30K into the thing and he won't be able to sell it for $7K, and he'll be dead in 5 years anyways", times have changed in that market probably forever.

But, the VW, in addition to there being a clealy visible "cult" around this hobby, there is a particular anomaly with the VW (especially the beetle) that runs counter to most all other "vintage" cars. I'd look at this in a few ways, but the first thing is I'm 40, yet I own beetles 10 and 15 years older than me, with no direct connection or experiences with these earliest beetles, which is a common trend for many folks owning these cars today. Further, many of us own beetles (splits and early ovals) that predate any kind of import volume here in the US, and its very interesting just seeing folks the last decade or so (like me) go to enormous efforts just to get these older cars over here!

I also believe that the beetle is unique in both how it attracts and creates a greater and greater "want" of an enthusiast to own earlier and earlier cars. Seems the earlier the cars are, the more interesting in alot of ways they become, which I believe is part of the interest (and the journey).

At the end of the day, I have to admit I heard it one time said best by an automobile historian, who said "the VW beetle is the only car ever made which transcends all generations and all classes of people living today" (and you can't say that about a Mustang or a Vette). Therefore, most of us have some sort of connection with these cars, whether it be a childhood experience, adolescence (which was mine using one at summer camp as my ATV for 3 months every year), a college beater, an economic commuter, etc, etc. Somewhere most of us have a VW story to tell, and with that usually a human experience we can all talk to each other about in some appreciative way, nomatter what any one of us does for a living, perhaps these cars are just a reminder of simpler times.

Anyways, just random thoughts. We're all just borrowing these cars for now, someone else is going to own them someday, so for now we're just paying for the right to take care of them for the time being, whatever thats worth now or in the future I'm not sure, but I wouldn't do it any differently if I had to do it again.

Gary

Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:48 pm

Maybe you forgot about calling my fiberglass buggy a turd? But I didn't. Bring that rust bucket out too cali for the classic's. And will see who's car is a turd or not. my 61 rhd with a aftermarket front clip is cleaner and better built, Then any one of those barnyard rebuilds you've got. Your ass is alway the one, making a smart ass comment about somebodys ride.

p.s. did you drain the doughboy for the winter????

peace...

Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:53 pm

pipster wrote: Maybe you forgot about calling my fiberglass buggy a turd? But I didn't. Bring that rust bucket out too cali for the classic's. And will see who's car is a turd or not. my 61 rhd with a aftermarket front clip is cleaner and better built, Then any one of those barnyard rebuilds you've got. Your ass is alway the one, making a smart ass comment about somebodys ride.

p.s. did you drain the doughboy for the winter????

peace...

I was busting Rich's balls, not yours. I didn't even realize it was a buggy - I saw the red pans and figured it was Rich's since he posted the pic.

I've been to the Classic and I know damn well my car can hang with those cars. Come on out sometime and look at the car yourself - I think you will change your mind. I'm not trying to brag - just stating how I feel.

Anyway - I wasn't busting your stones, and really didn't realize it wasn't Richs. So no offense meant.

Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:58 pm

coad wrote: Brezelwerks wrote: The baby boomer generation (via end over end family inheretences) will be driving the collector car market for years to come now for sure

I'm not so sure. The youngest boomers are at retirement age, and that tends to close the checkbook pretty fast. Maybe there's 10 more good years, but the real question is what cars they are gonna want to own.

If you figure that a guy in his early 50's is the prime buyer (old enough to have the disposable income and young enough to feel confident enough to spend it) then, if history holds, that guy is gonna want the cars he grew up with. If I'm 50 now that means the first cars I drove were late 60's and early 70's models which is closer to the end of the VW era than the beginning. Give it another 5 years and those 50 year olds are gonna be almost too young to have a personal connection with a beetle.

It's just like Model T's and A's. They were what every 50 year old messed with when I was a kid because that was the car they learned to drive in, but that market is deader than a carp because those guys are now too old to keep that market going. We're *almost* at that point with the 55 Chevy crowd. 60's muscle is where it's at.

I think if I were buying for investment I would be looking at the early Datsun 240Zs and some of the early japanese imports. Heck, maybe in 10 years the auction will be full of cherry AMC Pacers and Ford Pintos. Maybe the Samba gallery will be full of Buddy Hale restored 1977 VW Rabbits in a few years.

The market for original AMC products is already there, especially clean Levi interior cars. Look what Vista Cruisers did after That '70's Show came on the scene. Those stupid 'Little Red Wagons' from '78 are starting to bring good money.....

Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:13 pm

Brezelwerks wrote: I heard it one time said best by an automobile historian, who said "the VW beetle is the only car ever made which transcends all generations and all classes of people living today"

I hope that's true. However, the same arguments used to get made for the Model T (brilliant design, simple to work on, revolutionary, a car that transformed America, etc.) and as you point out I doubt that they have appreciated enough to talk about in the last 20 years simply because they have no outlived their primary nostalgia buyers and no longer have a direct emotional connection to most buyers.

I'm not saying that VW's aren't a sound investment (and I'm sorry, but when you start talking higher end cars you can't ignore the financal considerations), but I don't think that an investor without a specific interest in VW's would be as well off in 20 years buying Volkswagens as opposed to something that hasn't started its price appreciation spiral yet. I think VW's will continue to do better than the average antique car, but I don't see them leading the market.

Long-roofs wrote: The market for original AMC products is already there, especially clean Levi interior cars..

there's a MINT AMC Pacer (red with the Navajo blanket interior) some old lady in town owns and I watch it like a hawk cause I am gonna own that thing. My son is 14 and I can't think of a better car for a 16 year old. Rolling birth control cause he couldn't pickup a crack whore driving that pig.