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LennyC Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:23 pm

In a answer about synthetic oils, a sand seal was mentioned. Can it be
added without machining the case? I 'd like to install it on my 1600, and
plan on changing the pulley. Can it be done- thanks again.

glutamodo Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:38 pm

They do make bolt on sand seal kits. I've got them in both of my bugs, the seal carrier just taps into the opening in the case (a bit of gasket glue is needed, I use the Permetex Avaiation sealer stuff). Some kits have a spacer that you need to put between the crank and the new sand seal pulley, as well as a spacer you put under the gen/alternator pulley so they two still line up properly. (but in the past I've seen, and used, other kits that don't come with or need the shims.) You can find a couple of different sand seal pulley setups here (I think these particular ones are the ones that use the spacers)

http://www2.cip1.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=sand+seal

-Andy

LennyC Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:56 pm

Thanks for the tip-but EMPI stuff worries me!

glutamodo Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:18 pm

It's like anything you buy, some parts are better than others. I'm pretty sure one of the ones I have right now is an EMPI, and I've never had a problem with it. (I only put on on my 62 because I was trying to determine where an oil leak was coming from, it wasn't the pulley but once I put it on there I decided to leave it there. Plus the aluminum pulley has no wobble to it like my old stock one did)

I just linked to CIP1 because I knew I'd seen previously that they had a couple of them. I don't know if any of those are the same one as CB sells:

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=296

Alan_U Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:18 am

If your gonna sand seal your engine I would machine the case. You'll find the "NON machining" sand seal will obviously have a smaller ID on the oil seal. The crank pulley that is used with the NON machined style sand seal will be pretty darn thin in the key way area. YES I've heard of people breaking in that thin area where the crank pulley has been machined to accomidate the smaller "NON machined" oil seal.

If your not spitting oil at the crank pulley area I wouldn't bother. If your really concerned with contaminants just make sure your engine is full flowed and your using a high quality oil filter.

vicsvw Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:34 am

Make sure your not building up pressure in the lower end. Crank case pressure check <> http://www.1800vw.bizhosting.com/oilleaks.htm Pullys brake when instaled wrong. Builders hammer in the key or crank has burs, with the stock pully they just force it on with the pully nut. When installing any pully it should slip on and off by hand easly. Never broke one & instaled a lot of Empi's. Also most parts houses sell many brands of Pullys that are all made by the same manifacture. Worst pullys we have had was some Scats. The belt groves did not clean up when machined. Scat sold the bad ones for years, knowing they were not right. Normally they sold there junk to J.C. Whitney.

Alan_U Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:28 am

vicsvw wrote: it should slip on and off by hand easly

If you tried to ever install a beautiful CE crank pulley you must heat them ALOT with a heat gun then slip in over the crank end. Even that you must give them love taps to install all the way. The next time I take mine out I'm gonna flapper wheel the ID so that I can remove it by hand.

If I was gonna use the non machined sand seal setup I'd look for a steel hub version then get the pulley machined so it will work with an oil seal.

LennyC Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:05 am

Thanks for the info- I'm still a little confused. I want to change the pulley
to the GB 'street' one. I don't remember the name, but its the $100 version.
What sand seal would you guys recommend for this combo?
I'm going to use the filter/pump from ACN, and some type of breather setup-that'll be my next question. Man, you really can touch 1 thing w/o
touching another.
Thanks again for the input.

vwracerdave Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:10 am

A Gene Berg Acheiver pulley is a very good quality piece. On a street driven engine, you should not need a sand seal with this pulley. I run a Gene Berg pulley on my 7000 RPM race engine without any oil leakes and no sand seal. Sand seals are just like the name says "SAND". If you are building a sand buggy or other off road vehicle, then a sand seal may be necessary. On a street car, a sand seal is a bandade fix for a cheap "made in China" aftermarket pully. Many people experiance oil leaks with those cheap $20 aluminum pulleys so they think they need a sand seal to fix their oil leak, when what they really need is a better quality pulley.

Juanito84 Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:05 pm

I have a stock 1600 DP but go through some bad dust/sand storms. I don't like the idea of unfiltered air entering into the crankcase. I would like to install a filter with a check valve on the right valve cover and install a sand seal so that I am only allowing filtered air into the case with the aid of the stock air cleaner.

So it sounds like the machined case ones are better. Right?

Would it be best to ask my machinist to do it, or rent the sand seal case machining tool for $40?

Would I need to machine the Pulley too?

Anyone??

Anyone?????

Juanito84 Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:41 pm

I take it that it doesn't matter. Maybe I'll just try one of those bolt on ones first.

jsturtlebuggy Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:37 pm

Use a machine in sand seal. I find them worth it. Have been using my Gene Berg tool now for more than 30 years.
Yes sometimes you have to use a pulley seal on a stock engine. I have seen several cases that were worn from pulley grooves and leaked. The cause of this can be several things including a broken crankshaft, worn out bearing allowing crank and pulley to shift, etc..
The only time I have seen an aluminum pulley break out at the keyway is if the pulley is tight on crank and it is not pulled off straight.

Juanito84 Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:54 pm

Thanks! I wonder if my case being line bored might cause oil to mist out of there too. I'll plan on renting the Berg tool.

jsturtlebuggy Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:08 am

Since finding this problem out in the 1970s I measure all new and used case I going to build with to see if there is the proper clearance between the pulley and case. If it more than it should be it either gets a sand seal or case is replaced.

I done many with engine in car. Requires removing muffler and breast plate to do it.
Stock pulley can be machined to size or purchase a aftermarket sand seal pulley. The SCAT press in sand seal is the only one I know of that is a different size.
OD of pulley size machined for seal is same a rear axle seal race/spacer.
I still have a running 1776cc engine that was cut to use a VW rear axle seal as a pulley seal. It was done back in 1972 before I found out about Berg's tool.

[email protected] Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:48 pm

Something to think about with a machine in sand seal, a lot of Aircooled specific machine shops use line bore tooling that locates in the snout of the case. Removing that area for a sand seal makes it more difficult for shops with that tooling to do any future line boring.

jsturtlebuggy Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:58 pm

The is still enough material left to use a line bore tool on a magnesium case.
The aftermarket aluminum one are a different story as they can vary.
CB aluminum cases leave enough material to center line bore tool.
Yes I use a PortATool line bore bar after cutting for a sand seal.

Juanito84 Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:47 pm

This case is magnesium and doesn't need a line bore right now.

modok Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:53 pm

[email protected] wrote: Something to think about with a machine in sand seal, a lot of Aircooled specific machine shops use line bore tooling that locates in the snout of the case. Removing that area for a sand seal makes it more difficult for shops with that tooling to do any future line boring.

On the one hand yes, some portable line bore bars won't do it, but that's not to say it can't be done. Making an adapter is a less than one hour job.

If they can't figure out how to do THAT then maybe they should not be line-boring your case.

Call painters about it. I bet they have no problem with that.

hsosa1 Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:12 am

Juanito84 wrote: This case is magnesium and doesn't need a line bore right now. what did you end up doing ?

williamM Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:27 pm

Don't forget the spacer and long pulley bolt- you can get the pulley to clamp down on the sand seal ( pound in one) and if your doing end play at the same time- you could be headed for disaster. ax me how I know- pics if you want them :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:



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