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Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:30 pm

Has anyone here done the swap? With the little skinnys and big meats on my car I think it might help me. Looking for some practical real world experiences.
MURZ

Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:59 pm

I know there's been some mods that involve putting T3 brakes on the T1 backing plates. As to what years and whether the fronts should go on the backs, etc., you'll have to research it out.
On my '68 T1 pan, I've put the front wheel cylinders on the rear and I'm running Ghia disc brakes on the front. Performance-wise I can't offer you any insight. My pan is currently a work in progress.

I originally promised my kids a ride in the buggy on the last day of school this year, but I have had to readjust my promise. Now I'm shooting for the first day of the next school year. That'll give me the whole summer to finish up all the engineering and get 'er on the road.

Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:58 pm

Check out VW Help,a complete explanation and lots of pics on wheel cylinder swaps and using Thing brakes.

Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:35 am

I did it and it's easy. Just put the front wheel cylinders in back, and the back in the front. They go right in. Then you have to change the plumbing on the master cylinder. The front circuit of the master cylinder has 2 ports for the left and right wheels, you plug one and hook the rear brake line to the other one. The rear circuit only has 1 port, you have to put in a brake line tee and hook your front lines up to that. I don't know what will happen if you don't do it. It was explained to me that the larger front wheel cylinders had a larger bore in the master cylinder to provide the volume of brake fluid needed to operate properly.
Before I did this my front brakes would lock up If I hit them hard. Which you have to do sometimes in a buggy when others don't see you because of your size! Now my buggy stops straight and true and in a very short distance.
I highly reccomend this mod for a buggy with big and little tires.

Bill

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:47 am

I did nothing more then swap the front wheel cylinders with the rear wheel cylinders and the improvment in braking performance was noticable. I wish I would have taken a baseline measurment with my "G Tech" so I could put a number on the improvement.
Jerry...

Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:28 am

Must be have a lot to do with the tire sizes. Mine stops great with cylinders in stock location. Never know until you try it. Good Luck

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:14 pm

Bill--

What master cylinder are you using? I'm using an old bus MC--the kind that the resevoir just screws down into. I don't think has dual circuits, but maybe you know more than me about it. If I remember right, it has three lines coming out. I ran one to each front wheel and one to the steering brake for the back. Since I"m taking the steering brake out, should I run one to each back wheel and split the two front brakes off of a T?

By the way, I've done the WC swap. With '68 backing plates in back and a 22mm front cylinder, it's a straight swap. "So easy even I could do it!" I seem to remember reading that if you have pre-'68 backing plates there is an offset issue.

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:27 pm

Should done this when I assembled it the FIRST time!!!!

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:57 am

MURZI wrote: Should done this when I assembled it the FIRST time!!!!

AMEN I have built everything on my buggy three times. That's how you learn. If I built another buggy it wouldn't take nearly as long or cost nearly as much. :?

The problem is you don't know what you are going to have until it's done. For instance my brakes are perfect with the wheel cylinders in stock location, but I have wider tires on the front. I changed the torsion leaves about three times to get the ride right. Another buggy might be right with stock configuration.

Reminds me of this thread. :P :P Just picking on you Murz.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=162128&highlight=

Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:55 am

Tenthumbs
Can't tell, not knowing. I don't know much about bus brakes yet, I should have said it worked well on my '73 based buggy with stock brake parts. It sounds like you at least have front and rear circuits inside the mc. I'd try running the rear off one of the front 2 holes, plugging the other 1 and tee the rear hole for the front brakes. then take a ride on an isolated road or empty parking lot and beat on your brakes to see what they'll do and how they react to panic stops.

Yellermanx
Definitely has to do with tire size, I running 275-60/15's in back and 195-60/14's in front. The rear tires overpowered the rear brakes and the front brakes overpowered the front tires. I had one situation where a woman driver never saw me coming and pulled right out in front of me while I was going about 45. Man I was standing on those brakes! The fronts locked up immediately and the rears never locked up! I did the swap shortly after that incident. Now it stops staight and true and it's easy to modulate lock up. I had to test it with some really hard stops in order to trust a brake mod.

Bill

Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:23 pm

Some interesting reading from another forum....
http://p066.ezboard.com/frbcdunebuggyfrm14.showMessage?topicID=32.topic

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:45 pm

Murzi/Anyone, what did you end up doing with the master cylinder connection when you swapped the front and rear brake cylinders? Did you swap the connection at the master cylinder also? I'm just staring to work on the brake lines and don't want to do it twice if I can help it. I read the article attached by Greenmanx, but it did not mention anything about the master cylinder connection when using the later dual circuit style. Any input would be appreciated.

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:14 pm

Re read my posts in this thread.

Bill

Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:12 pm

Thanks Bill, I was asleep at the wheel again.

Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:56 pm

I'm running type three brakes in the rear (45mm) and stock shoes/drums in the front with 68 bug rear wheel cylanders (up front).The combination works very WELL

Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:00 pm

The wheel cylinder swap can be done for the cost of a tee, a plug and some brake fluid and works just as well.

Bill

Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:08 pm

Bill, do they make plugs or should I manufacture one by welding the end of a fitting closed?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:52 pm

They make plugs

Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:35 pm

Lost in Baja - You mentioned above that you just swapped out the wheel cylenders without any plumbing changes. Are you running a single circuit or a double circuit MC. Mines a double circuit and I'm wondering if it makes a difference?[/quote]

Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:02 pm

PK,
In some books they show different stroke length for front and rear curcuits on some, not all tandem master cylinders.
Front curcuit has longer stroke than rear on tandem m/c.
My Dad swapped the wheel cylinder around on the buggy that we still have way back in 1970. Buggy is built on 1969 pan. Lines where not swap from front to rear curcuits and has never cause a problem.
Only problem I can see is if you let your brakes get way out of adjustment, then master cylinder would have to be pushed further in and may cause a problem with it bottoming out before brakes shoe contact drums.