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Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:46 pm

The deep sump also helps on HiPo motors, at 7k the oil is being pumped up into the engine faster then it can drain back down

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:23 pm

jamestwo wrote: The deep sump also helps on HiPo motors, at 7k the oil is being pumped up into the engine faster then it can drain back down

The engine is a closed system. If you're pumping it "up into" somewhere it either has to be stored there or it will drain back as fast as it is pumped. I suppose it could happen but if it does the oil return system really needs a serious look!

Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:02 pm

GeorgeL wrote: jamestwo wrote: The deep sump also helps on HiPo motors, at 7k the oil is being pumped up into the engine faster then it can drain back down

The engine is a closed system. If you're pumping it "up into" somewhere it either has to be stored there or it will drain back as fast as it is pumped. I suppose it could happen but if it does the oil return system really needs a serious look!

it does need some looking at.
Just look at my recent trials.

I am trying to releave the side of the case and try to remove the constant pounding of oil that pushes it up the tubes and into the head. (hoping this pushes right back into the case)

I have pictures of my valve cover that get filled up completly at 5000 rpm because of this issue. (via a clear window on the cover)

i need to get that cover back to i can retest and see if what im doing is helping. Not to mention, oil is getting pinned and pressed into all the little nooks and cranies.

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:48 am

Muffler Mike wrote: GeorgeL wrote: jamestwo wrote: The deep sump also helps on HiPo motors, at 7k the oil is being pumped up into the engine faster then it can drain back down

The engine is a closed system. If you're pumping it "up into" somewhere it either has to be stored there or it will drain back as fast as it is pumped. I suppose it could happen but if it does the oil return system really needs a serious look!

it does need some looking at.
Just look at my recent trials.

Yow, what plumbing!

Are those tubes from the bottom of the valve covers directly to the sump? They look a bit small considering that they are backing up the normal function of the pushrod tubes. Do they help at all?

George

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:12 am

LOL.
nothing from the valve cover actually. that second picture in the big scheme of things looks like this. your probably looking at the oil pressure control line.

But weather this side relief of the case works? is still a question. I know it cant hurt. (unless i loose a fitting) I do know when i warm up the motor, those lines heat up just as fast, so that tells me there is flow.

For me, trying to drain the head wasnt a very easy proposition with the way my wheelie bars sit up close to the sump. So there would be a hose in the way all the time.
this motor above we probably could have, but when my buddy saw mine, he asked if he should do the same, and we did.
I could use a scavenge pump and suck it out, but im cheap like the rest and dont want to spend money.

and to drain a head, i think the hose would have to be huge in order to overcome gravity and the head of oil it would hit when it reached sump level.

dont know if you have ever seen these pictures before, but i did this in 2000
before.

at 2500

AT 5000 rpm and trying to migrate up the breather hose. (was using clear hose back then.)

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:44 am

Looks like you are getting way too much oil to the heads! Have you considered restricting this flow with smaller orifices in the pushrods?

George

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:28 pm

GeorgeL wrote: Looks like you are getting way too much oil to the heads! Have you considered restricting this flow with smaller orifices in the pushrods?

George

Actually that has come up.
But the ammount is fairly insignificant in my eyes.
this picture is of the 1-2 side at 5000 rpm. it splashes and drains right away with no build up.

Basically what i think is happening is there is a build up of droplets and the next drop slung off the crank and windage keeps a wall pushed up agains the side of the case and doesnt allow easy drainage back to the center of the case to the sump, eventually building up enough of a wall that it finally gets to the holes under the lifter bores and pushes up the tubes. Thus i put the hoses in the side of the case to give the oil a different place to go. But i dont know if the hoses i used are large enough to control the volume. Maybe after the sac race this weekend, i will try and get that cover back and do another exparament.
Other factors are involved in my motor too like 30mm oil pump running at 80 lbs with a lot of side clearance on the rods, so there is a lot of oil being slung off the crank.

I wouldnt mind trying to make somethign inside kind of like a windage tray, but only on one side and have it mount up tight under the lifter bores almost like a delfector shield. but this year there was NO time for that

Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:04 pm

Will the 'raised-roof' on the CB case interfere with the OEM fan shroud? If so...how much re-work is necessary to mate them together(seal)? I am weighing my options for a reliable but POWERful engine for my '70 baywindow. If I can build a reliable type1 engine with an ALU case, then I will. Probably a 2110. My other option is to go watercooled. Type 4 isn't an option for me, at least not in an early bay.

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:54 pm

Micropassatman wrote: Will the 'raised-roof' on the CB case interfere with the OEM fan shroud? If so...how much re-work is necessary to mate them together(seal)? I am weighing my options for a reliable but POWERful engine for my '70 baywindow. If I can build a reliable type1 engine with an ALU case, then I will. Probably a 2110. My other option is to go watercooled. Type 4 isn't an option for me, at least not in an early bay.

8) I recently ran into this problem on my 2110 "raised roof" Empi case.There is some interference but the metal is thin on the housing and can be easliy trimmed to fit. Just cut and trim with tin snipes and files,a little at a time until she fits properly. :wink:

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:40 pm

I cut the stock"hood" off my oil pick up. I could be wrong, but I think it's in the way and slows oil returning to the deep sump.

I leave a small pie cut to the single bolt that keeps it attached.

Since i got my laptop, I can't type worth anything :shock:

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:15 am

jamestwo wrote: I cut the stock"hood" off my oil pick up. I could be wrong, but I think it's in the way and slows oil returning to the deep sump.

I leave a small pie cut to the single bolt that keeps it attached.

Since i got my laptop, I can't type worth anything :shock:

i would agree with that.

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:01 am

Muffler Mike wrote: GeorgeL wrote: Looks like you are getting way too much oil to the heads! Have you considered restricting this flow with smaller orifices in the pushrods?

George

Actually that has come up.
But the ammount is fairly insignificant in my eyes.
this picture is of the 1-2 side at 5000 rpm. it splashes and drains right away with no build up.

Basically what i think is happening is there is a build up of droplets and the next drop slung off the crank and windage keeps a wall pushed up agains the side of the case and doesnt allow easy drainage back to the center of the case to the sump, eventually building up enough of a wall that it finally gets to the holes under the lifter bores and pushes up the tubes. Thus i put the hoses in the side of the case to give the oil a different place to go. But i dont know if the hoses i used are large enough to control the volume. Maybe after the sac race this weekend, i will try and get that cover back and do another exparament.
Other factors are involved in my motor too like 30mm oil pump running at 80 lbs with a lot of side clearance on the rods, so there is a lot of oil being slung off the crank.

I wouldnt mind trying to make somethign inside kind of like a windage tray, but only on one side and have it mount up tight under the lifter bores almost like a delfector shield. but this year there was NO time for that

Yeah, that might be your problem. You're saying the left side is worse than the right? If so, a set of curved deflector plates that conforms to the motion of the throws of the crank on the left side would probably cure the problem. The oil would sling off, hit the deflector, and then go fore or aft back to the sump. The idea is to block the direct path from the crank to the side of the case where the pushrods tubes enter.

George

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:45 pm

GeorgeL wrote: Muffler Mike wrote: GeorgeL wrote: Looks like you are getting way too much oil to the heads! Have you considered restricting this flow with smaller orifices in the pushrods?

George

Actually that has come up.
But the ammount is fairly insignificant in my eyes.
this picture is of the 1-2 side at 5000 rpm. it splashes and drains right away with no build up.

Basically what i think is happening is there is a build up of droplets and the next drop slung off the crank and windage keeps a wall pushed up agains the side of the case and doesnt allow easy drainage back to the center of the case to the sump, eventually building up enough of a wall that it finally gets to the holes under the lifter bores and pushes up the tubes. Thus i put the hoses in the side of the case to give the oil a different place to go. But i dont know if the hoses i used are large enough to control the volume. Maybe after the sac race this weekend, i will try and get that cover back and do another exparament.
Other factors are involved in my motor too like 30mm oil pump running at 80 lbs with a lot of side clearance on the rods, so there is a lot of oil being slung off the crank.

I wouldnt mind trying to make somethign inside kind of like a windage tray, but only on one side and have it mount up tight under the lifter bores almost like a delfector shield. but this year there was NO time for that

Yeah, that might be your problem. You're saying the left side is worse than the right? If so, a set of curved deflector plates that conforms to the motion of the throws of the crank on the left side would probably cure the problem. The oil would sling off, hit the deflector, and then go fore or aft back to the sump. The idea is to block the direct path from the crank to the side of the case where the pushrods tubes enter.

George

8) Isn't that the purpose of the extra length on windage length pushrod tubes?

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5370

Just wondering. :D

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:50 pm

Wild Bill wrote:
8) Isn't that the purpose of the extra length on windage length pushrod tubes?

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5370

Just wondering. :D

Good point. If they stick far enough into the case they might allow the tubes to drain even with nasty oil buildup.

Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:28 pm

EZGZ wrote: Germany is a land locked country and had little or no oil resources of their own.

Germany is not land locked. Germany borders both the North Sea and the Baltic Sea. Magnesium is primarily produced by electrolysis of magnesium chloride recovered from sea water.

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:15 pm

1200RS wrote: jamestwo wrote: I like the as41, but with all the aluminiums ones on the market, I finally got one. First impression, it's heavy.

So far it checks out, but I haven't started the motor yet.
of course
density of magnesium 1.8
density of aluminium 2.7.
50% more weight.

evry time peaple tell me about alu, I report what say Ian Clark in GB
"aluminium bloc is probably better, but I dont need it."
He ran in the mid 10's :twisted:

So 50% more weight adds up to how many extra lbs./kg. ?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:18 pm

bottom line for me is that after wearing out the lifter bores in stock cases not to mention the huge expansion of the bock when it gets hot, the alum block is better hands down for a big motor. Not only does the engine run quite at temp (because the vavle lash doesn't go way out) it also holds better oil pressure. Everyone is always talking about how great the Type 4 is now days... Hmmm, what is that bock made of??? Aluminum perhaps???

Jason

Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:09 pm

I have both, an Alum. raised roof 2332 in my Manx and a Mag. 2332 in
my Baja. Both have been run hard for a couple of years now with no
problems. The Alum. raised roof went together with Scat H-beams and
3/8 bolts real easy, like James said. I used the 5/16 bolt CB H-beams
in the Mag. case to make things fit better. Both of the case's needed
some work done to them, especially the oil relief holes not being flat
on ether one. The Alum. case was an early model ASC pentroof and
had a lot of slag, some covering oil return holes. All of the dimensional
tolerances checked out good on both case's. I like the solid back on the
Alum. case but yes it is heavy. I am building a new 2387 with a raised
roof - raised deck CB Alum. case now with Nickies, DRD heads and JE
pistons. It will also have Schubeck Ceramic lifters and Aircooled net
Alum. pushrods. The entire engine should grow at about the same rate
as it gets hot.
I have a feeling it will be very strong and hold together for a long time.

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:44 pm

SO I was thinking the same thing. and now after reading all of this I am going to go with an aluminum block....

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:18 pm

Thumbs down for the Empi AL case. It porous and mine seeps oil, rather pours oil from the main oil gallery.

TWO thunmbs down :x