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Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:14 pm

Quote: the correct distributor (the long block currently has a ZV/PAU 4 R 5 distributor) (what's correct?)
BR 25s

Quote: the bus air cleaner with "slots" does it screw on or clamp on?)
Clamps:

Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:44 pm

BulliBill wrote: Hi all,

I just acquired a 40 hp "Bastard" long block motor. Block number #3467872, has the heads with the screw-on metal covers over the small chamber above the rocker box area (I imagine it has the vent hole from the chamber to the rocker box). I got it from Kent Z. here in St. Louis for my June '59 Double Door Panel bus, although I'm not sure if I'll ever bolt it in. I have a '61 40 hp motor in there now and I just wanted to obtain the correct "Bastard" engine that would have been in there. I already had the correct carb and fuel pump, but now I'll need to hunt down the missing upper L & R side cylinder tins, the correct distributor (the long block currently has a ZV/PAU 4 R 5 distributor) (what's correct?), the bus air cleaner with "slots" does it screw on or clamp on?), and a gasket set for the Bastard motor. I'd love to hear from anyone who has any of that stuff laying around for sale so I can complete this engine.

After I clean it up a little (oily and dirty), I'll try to shoot some photos and (if I can figure out how to down-size and post 'em) I'll send some photos to this thread. Other than the early case #, what obvious differences should be visible on the outside of a "Bastard" case that was later changed/improved. Also, what should the detachable generator tower look like?

Thanks for any answers, photos and assistance with my missing parts!

Bill Bowman
That case number (3 467 872) is for a January '60 engine prior to the factory Bastard fix.
It is possible it had been fixed later (pre-explosion) at a dealer. They would have taken it apart, machined #1 main bearing saddle for a thrust bearing, and installed a new crank with a thrust face at #1 main journal.
The fact the heads with the vented rocker boxes are still on the engine, indicates left and right #2 bearing saddles may not be cut to vent the crankcase chambers.
The flywheel end of the crank will provide a clue, too.
You could take a set of cylinders off and look in the case for the presence of a thrust bearing at #2 main. If you find one there, you have a VERY rare engine.

Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:29 am

Hi all,

Thanks Everett for the photos of the distributor and air cleaner! The hunt is on! A few more questions...

Okay, a photo earlier in this thread shows a VJR 4 BP 25 centrifigal advance distributor. Everetts' photo shows two VJ 4 BR 25 centrifigal advance distributors. Were there several distributors or only one for the "Bastards"? Also, anyone know the cast-in part number for the correct intake manifold (a 111-, 113-, or 211- number)? Are the fan shroud and lower air channel tin and heater boxes like the later 40 horse versions or are they the 36 horse stuff. Does the correct fan shroud for a Bastard use the 36 hp style "air control ring" actuated by the thermostat or what (any good photos)?

Thanks again for any clarifications as well as any help locating the correct goodies to complete my new engine...theSamba community is so helpful an valuable to us all!

Bill Bowman

Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:21 am

Answering the parts I know:
BulliBill wrote: Okay, a photo earlier in this thread shows a VJR 4 BP 25 centrifigal advance distributor. Everetts' photo shows two VJ 4 BR 25 centrifigal advance distributors. Were there several distributors or only one for the "Bastards"?
My photo shows one of each. :)

I don't know which is correct but the R just means it had a resistor rotor so they may have been used at identical times. I know this is true of R vs. non-R 36hp earlier distributors.

BulliBill wrote: Are the fan shroud and lower air channel tin and heater boxes like the later 40 horse versions or are they the 36 horse stuff.
The May, 1959 Bus Owner's Manual on the site, which shows a lot of the bastard engine details, shows the 40hp style heater boxes with the enclosed J-tube pipe.

BulliBill wrote: Does the correct fan shroud for a Bastard use the 36 hp style "air control ring" actuated by the thermostat or what (any good photos)?
Yes, it would have the ring. These were used much later, including all 40hp engines. Even my all original '64 1500cc Bus still has the ring.
I think you know what it looks like but here are 2 photos anyway:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=383791
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=69338

Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:20 pm

Hi all,

Well, I took a better look at the "Bastard" motor, and the case has the webbing below the oil pressure sender hole. Does the Bastard use a 36hp or 40hp and later style oil pressure sender switch? This motor has 14mm nuts that hold the generator tower, the fuel pump and the distributor clamp to the case. The early Bastard heads have those special valve covers (can new gaskets be bought?) and the small chamber above the rocker box with the small metal cover has the hole between the chamber and the rocker box. Also, the rocker arms have those rocker "stands" that the rocker shaft pass through. This motor is pretty cool. I really want to get all the missing stuff together and see if it'll run okay.

Kent told me that he had heard that this motor was pulled from a bus during the "Bastard" recall and stored at the dealership. Once he eventually got a hold of it he actually ran it for a while in a bus and says it ran great but wouldn't push the bus any faster than 49 or 50 mph. Once I find all the goodies I'll have to try to run it again, at least briefly!

Bill Bowman

Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:40 pm

Everett,I have worked on both VJ BR 25 and VJR BR 25's manufactured in the same month which pretty much confirms that they were made simultaniously and probably either one would have been correct.

Bill I got a batch of gasket sets some time ago and there were at least one set of valve cover gaskets for the bastard 40 horse. PM me if you'd like.

Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:12 am

I am still wading through the intricacies of bastard engine "generations" and differences in part information and trying to compile parts for my engine's eventual rebuild (#3420xxx). I got a set of four NOS pistons and cylinders last week and based on my research, I believe they are correct. They have blue dots on each of the p's and c's and 76.95 on each piston. The part number is 113 101 311 and "9 x 82" is printed on the fin. The OD of the flange that fits into the cyl head is just shy of 87 mm.

From what I see in the shop manual, these are the smallest of the three standard sizes (nom. dimension 77 mm)

Blue marking: 76.95 mm piston
Pink marking: 76.96 mm piston
Green marking: 76.97 mm piston

I'm not sure why there are three different sizes, or if it's even significant, since the nominal dimensions are all the same. I am happy to at least have a matched set.

Since I am still hunting for more parts and want to be sure I get the right ones, is there a resource for bastard engine part numbers (crank, bearings, valves, etc.?) I have tried to decipher the part info on vintagebus.com, but just got a headache :?

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:18 pm

67 Florida Deluxe,
The closest to a bastard crank you will find is one with thrust faces at both #1 and #2, 113 105 101 B, like mine on page 1.
How close to being a true bastard is yours? There are lots of things to consider if you want to make one. I would be glad to help you out via PM if you need any info. After everything is done, it would be nice to have a thread on what you did, with pics.

Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:00 pm

VW Vet wrote: 67 Florida Deluxe,
The closest to a bastard crank you will find is one with thrust faces at both #1 and #2, 113 105 101 B, like mine on page 1.
How close to being a true bastard is yours? There are lots of things to consider if you want to make one. I would be glad to help you out via PM if you need any info. After everything is done, it would be nice to have a thread on what you did, with pics.

Thanks, Vet. I doubt my engine is 100% stock but I don't want to tear it down until I have proper replacement parts for the rebuild. If I tear it down now, it may sit that way for a while and I may be relocating soon.

It has the original bastard case/engine number (according to the supplemental letter from Stiftung), but what's odd is my VIN build date is July 1, 1959, but the engine number corresponds to a Dec. '59 build date :-k . I might surmise that it was a replacement.... It has an A. Pierburg KG vertical discharge fuel pump, Solex 28 PCI carb, generator stand #113 101 211, bastard tin with raised area and cylinder number, but it has non-bastard valve covers and heads (#113 101 371C).

What I want to achieve (if possible) is a period-correct bastard engine, even if it has generation 2 or 3 parts, since most of the early bastards were either refitted with proper thrust bearing location or junked and replaced altogether. Since my bus is very complete and original, I wanted to have as "original" an engine as I can. Any input/advice is appreciated!

Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:14 am

Can someone tell me which of these two exhaust tips is correct for the bastard era engine? I am reasonably certain the shorter (background) is correct for later engines, such as 63-67, but do not know which is correct for the bastard, or for that matter, what the longer one (foreground) is for at all. They both will fit. It is just a matter of how far to the left you want the exhaust outlet.

Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:19 pm

I believe the back on is a generic replacement and originally intended for Baywindow.

The front one is Splitty only.

Sun May 03, 2009 9:10 am

VWVET,
I have been discussing my bastard motor on the other thread;

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3781054#3781054

Bastardbus requested that I measure my head and spigot and these are the numbers I came up with;

Cylinder head opening-87mm
Case(spigot)-86.86mm

What do you think?

Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:15 am

"I'm not sure why there are three different sizes, or if it's even significant, since the nominal dimensions are all the same. I am happy to at least have a matched set. "

It probably is a result of manufacturing tolerances. If a piston came out a hair undersize or oversize they would match it with a similar cylinder to make a matched set with perfect clearance. That way they did not have to scrap a perfectly good piston.

This was a common practice at one time.

Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:48 pm

According to the orignal bill of sale I have for my 1960 Singlecab VIN567687, the engine number was 3 495 672 which would put it as an early Bastard Engine (if they ran from 3400000 to 3580000). The first owner hated it and burned out three engines in the first two years he owned the truck and then sold it because the engines kept failing and didn't have any power....so that original engine has been gone since 1960/62...maybe even three bastard engines!
But my question is: on the M-plate, I see it had the option code 362 which included 620 for a 12v electrical....Did any of the bastard engines have 12v? And if so, would this still be a generator. I am curious if my truck has always been 12v (starting with a Bastard Engine).
Link me to the forum if this has already been answered....
Cheers!

Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:29 pm

362 doesn't include 620 according to the M-code list on this site.

I don't think your truck was ever 12-volt.

Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:23 am

Sitka Steve wrote: According to the orignal bill of sale I have for my 1960 Singlecab VIN567687, the engine number was 3 495 672 which would put it as an early Bastard Engine (if they ran from 3400000 to 3580000). The first owner hated it and burned out three engines in the first two years he owned the truck and then sold it because the engines kept failing and didn't have any power....so that original engine has been gone since 1960/62...maybe even three bastard engines!
But my question is: on the M-plate, I see it had the option code 362 which included 620 for a 12v electrical....Did any of the bastard engines have 12v? And if so, would this still be a generator. I am curious if my truck has always been 12v (starting with a Bastard Engine).
Link me to the forum if this has already been answered....
Cheers!
The true Bastard engines, thrust bearing at #2 main, were from 3 400 000 thru 3 491 699. After that, the thrust bearing was returned to #1 main.

Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:20 pm

EverettB wrote: 362 doesn't include 620 according to the M-code list on this site.

I don't think your truck was ever 12-volt.

Thanks for going off the bastard engine forum a little bit here...., I would agree with you on the voltage, but thought I needed to ask.... I was using the information from David Eccles book, VW Transporter spec guide...pg. 44. "362 = North American export model with 025,020,024,090,176, and 620/1 (single and double cab)" then 620 is defined as "12v electrical system (standard from August 1966)".

Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:24 pm

VW Vet wrote:
The true Bastard engines, thrust bearing at #2 main, were from 3 400 000 thru 3 491 699. After that, the thrust bearing was returned to #1 main.

Excellent information. Thanks for the specifics.

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:13 am

I was checking all this info about bastard engines and there's something that I dont get:
according to this post, bastard engines started in may 59, at engine number 3,400,000, but if you check the VIN listings in this same site, may 59 ended with engine 2 996 628, 3400000 would be december 59.
If you check the type 1 listings the numbers are the same, but then type 1s stayed with the 36ers, so did VW start bastards with their own numbering system at 3400000? what happened when 36ers actually got to engine number 3400000?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:07 am

Slow 1200 wrote: I was checking all this info about bastard engines and there's something that I dont get:
according to this post, bastard engines started in may 59, at engine number 3,400,000, but if you check the VIN listings in this same site, may 59 ended with engine 2 996 628, 3400000 would be december 59.
If you check the type 1 listings the numbers are the same, but then type 1s stayed with the 36ers, so did VW start bastards with their own numbering system at 3400000? what happened when 36ers actually got to engine number 3400000?
I can't explain the difference. I have seen charts like this from different sources, and the numbers often don't always agree from chart to chart.
Maybe the charts don't include the Bastard serial numbers, as they were all supposed to be returned at some point.
However, all the dates and numbers in my posts come from the Bentley Manual, which was printed when the Bastard issue was current. I would consider this the definitive source. It specifically addresses the engines in this thread.