TheSamba.com :: View topic

Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:38 pm

I am a long time fan of thesamba.com. I have always thought highly of this site. I recently discovered the community page, which has even further caught my interest. However their is one area in there that seems very out of place. The R&R forum. I am wondering why this type of activity is being allowed in such a great site. I have noticed that some of it gets deleted. But much of it stays. I think the R&R forum would be more usefull if the guidelines were better enforced.

Russell

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:01 am

Depends on your definition of "useful". It really serves no useful purpose as far as VW info is concerned. You find that in the other forums, where the same people that go nuts in R&R are helpful and friendly. R&R's real purpose, I think, is to be a place where people let off steam and say whatever they want without fear of recrimination. Kind of like that old primal scream therapy. If you think it's out of place then simply don't go there.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:56 am

I think the R&R forum is useful for making complaints and/or giving compliments on VW related issues. However, there is a lot of activity which deliberately criticizes and intimitates for mear entertainment perposes. Whether it is making fun of someone elses VW, or threatening violence, it's useless and offensive. Frankly, I don't want advise in another forum to come from someone who is offending others in the R&R just for a laugh. Instead of telling people like me not to go there, why not clean out the trash, so that it would be comfortable for everyone to use?

Russell

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:05 am

I think one man's trash is another man's treasure. I also think it is hopeless to find a place where everyone is comfortable. Everyone is not looking for the same thing. In another forum I read where someone is making their home available to anyone who wants to stay over while visiting a VW show. He says that he has a great roomate (I assume female) who routinely serves beer to everybody there while topless. I would be very uncomfortable in that situation. Others will find nothing wrong with it. So I don't plan to ask if I can stay over there. I read the rants and sometimes cringe at what is being said there. But then I move on. I think if you are going to make it through life with some level of friendship and acquaintances you have to be able to look past the excesses of others so long as they don't endanger the things you value. Whew. End of sermon.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:22 am

I agree with everything you just said. The example you just gave about the stay over, that kind of stuff does'nt bother me either. What I'm trying to get at is the "high school" bullying that goes on. Nobody should have to put up with that. It's useless and seems to only serve as entertainment to the immature.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:31 am

Yes, it sure does seem useless. I don't even open some of the threads any more. The novelty wears off. I think that thesamba actually is very well organized in that it keeps the craziness mostly confined to one forum. Kudos to Everett for a very nice job.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:51 am

I agree a lot of it is BS posted by people who should behave better in public. A lot of the posts are for entertainment purposes only.

I would eliminate it except it keeps the BS in one place. People know not to slam somebody or clog up the other Forums with useless crap. I have seen other Forums that get overrun with swearing, yelling back and forth, and general garbage. I don't have time to police all the Forums so the Rants keep the garbage in one place where I can remove anything that gets out of hand.

Unfortunately, I can't monitor everything at all times so if you feel something is way out of line, feel free to email me with a link or thread title and I will check it out.

I delete anything I see that I feel is completely inappropriate. I just deleted some threads a few minutes ago.

I agree some of the "regulars" go over the line sometimes but I feel as long as they are contributing in a positive way in other Forums, I give them some leeway.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:25 pm

No, the "regulars" go over the line a lot of the time.....not just sometimes. And they do so because of the leeway you give them. Another problem with giving them leeway is that other people think they can do it too. Then they get bullied by the "regulars", then deleted by you. And the double standard that is left over is there for everyone else to see. So they contribute to other forums.....that's great. But it would be better if they had enough respect for your site to act like adults, and not punk kids.

Russell

Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:48 pm

As a "regular" (i have the dubious honour of posting the first "rant".) i feel obliged to reply. I agree with you, westycruiser, that there is often inappropriate commentary which tends to cause threads to deteriorate. I just did an informal, unscientific "thread count" (sounds like i am manufacturing cotton sheets), reviewing the activity during the last week, dividng threads into "helpful" "friendly" and "do not open"categories. I am not a statistician, the webmaster, or a first amendment scholar, so your results may vary, but i found that better than 70% of the threads were inoffensive, with the exception of mild language. Do the regulars "bully" others? again, if you go back and take an objective look at the threads, you may find that the regulars in question are often the first bashed. i do not defend the rampant homophobia, and the rare needless attacks which unfortunately occur. However i also find that those same regulars have also effectively prevented bad, (occasionally life-threatening) advice to be passed on, unethical dealers to be revealed, and provide effective advice. In defense of everett, i think he has done all he can do to provide a place for venting steam, so that the flame wars so common on other forums do not infect this one, and also has labelled and quarantined this section of the forum far beyond mandatory OSHA standards.
i understand your concerns, westycruiser, yet i am unsure how to improve the rants. how do you mandate good taste and discretion, without resorting to draconian censorship?

Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:28 pm

as a regular myself i agree with everything bljones just said.

if you look at all the other forums, there are no stupid fights and almost no swearing at all. compare this to many other forums on the net where this is common place and on those forums you have to wade through the trash to get the good info. atleast on the samba you can bypass all the "offensive" material by just staying out of the rants.

if you can stand some of the crazyness of the rants you will see that much good comes of it. even if you dont think so, i guarantee that the rants keeps a lot of shady people in line in the vw world. the samba is a very powerful place and if you rip someone off the rants is going to tear you up and ruin the persons rep. now i would be willing to bet that this has kept some people from being ripoffs just out of fear. i really think that is a good thing.

i myself give alot of tech advise in the general forums but i also like to unwind in the rants too, i would hope that someone would not think less of me because i partake in the fun from time to time. i would say that 95% of what goes on in the rants is all in good fun but it is a large comunity and disagreements will happen just like in life.

99% of the heavy battles in the rants start by somebody with a fake name talking all kinds of trash that they would never do face to face to a large group of people. those are the people that need to be cleaned out.

also i think everett does one hell of a job with this website. just think where we would all be right now without it. nothing in this world is going to make EVERYBODY happy. concider how great it is that only one small part of this whole website is not of your taste. there are lots of things in this world i dont like and what i do is just stay away from them.

just my 2cents
jeff (not a punk kid!)

if you dont like it here, you can always just make your own vw website with high family values.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:41 pm

Well I'd like to make some of my own guestimations, then I'll end with some suggestions. I would say that on average at least 75% of all rants are vulger and/or offensive, 25% of those are deleted, leaving 50% as the "regulars" leeway rants. I say on average because some days are better or worse the others. Like today is actually pretty mellow. My suggestion is to make it be known: if you are vulger or deliberately offensive to others...your out. Even if you loose ten or twelve punks, it's not like there are'nt thousands of more samba fans out there to replace them! So why give anyone leeway?

Russell

Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:41 pm

Hey Everett- Question-
On the average- how much time do you spend on your site? say per day- I am attempting to set up a site (non VW related - so you can rest easy) and I would like to gather as much info as possible-

Thanks

for this forum ? I generally go to the R/R section for my daily laugh-makes the ppl in the office wonder thou-

Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:05 pm

westycruiser, i was one who stepped up in the rants and said what you said. like many before me and many after have done. i got hammered on for a long time. but i still participate in the rants. i believe that if you stick around long enough, you too will NEED the rants. if you get burned on a deal or have complaints about the VW scene, the rants are there. i don't find it as entertaining as some people do. it has been useful to me and i learned ALOT about the VW scene there. believe it or not, there is a higher message coming from the rants.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:13 pm

Westy: The vulgar your out idea may sound good but probably wouldn't work as they could just come up with another e-mail address and change user name and be right back on.
Most of those who participate in the rants are well aware that most of it is not real and just entertainment. Granted it can be, petty, childish, and sometimes vulgar,but it is fun for those who visit regularly and most keep it to the rants forum only. There have also been times when I could not get an answer to questions in the other forums and have asked here and got the right answer.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:25 pm

I am going to play devil's advocate for a second, westycruiser, so please bear with me. if your "vulgar or deliberately offensive to others... your (sic) out." suggestion was followed, then you yourself would have to be "out". after all, i am sure someone out there would be offended by you repeatedly calling them a "punk". Punk is a term that could be seen by some as offensive, and the fact that you used it repeatedly could be construed as deliberate. ergo, you have been deliberately offensive. See the slippery slope that it is all to easy for even one with the best intentions to start sliding down?

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:36 pm

By the same token, the previous post of mine may make someone of a sensitive disposition feel bullied. However, as it was not vulgar, or deliberately offensive, simply a statement of fact, I would still be "in." So then, someone would cry foul and declare that no one should be allowed to disagree with anyone, even politely, because disagreement invalidates their concerns and damages their self-esteem, so all disagreement, correction and conflicting attitudes must be prohibited from this website. Then, all bad advice, questions and unscrupulous business practices will have to go unanswered, as any disagreement will be construed as damaging and offensive, and the offender will be banned.
is this far-fetched? maybe. but a decade ago, would your child have been suspended from school for throwing a snowball? We are all responsible for our own actions. i do not condone much of the vulgarity in the rants so i do not participate in it. you have the same choice. you are responsible for entering the rants section of the forum, you have the choice to participate, or not. i personally believe that the best way to create change is from within, and to affect change by example, not by decree. at the end of the day, i may not have been entirely successful, but at least i can still hold my head up.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:46 pm

For lack of better words I did say "deliberately offensive". But come on. I mean you can say that (bljones devils advocate point)about anything. To give you a better example of what I mean, on many occasions I have seen threads in the R&R that criticize other people VWs. People post their cars in the gallery or classifies, and then all of the sudden they are the joke of the week. That's just not right. My suggestion earlier revolves around the idea that people are only going to do what you let them get away with. If there is a zero tolerence for it, the people who want to stay on will clean up their act.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:06 pm

again, i am going to play devil's advocate. if you are advocating zero tolrance for criticism, then, again, you would be out, as you have just criticized those who comment on cars seen in the gallery and the classifieds. Sometimes, the razzing can be seen as a little harsh, but sometimes it also serves a legitimate purpose, highlighting undisclosed defects in cars advertised here. a number of ads have been edited/changed/deleted thanks to this scrutiny. Would you feel better if ads advertising false "never hit", "rust-free', "19,000 original miles" claims were left unchecked?

Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:25 pm

What you are doing right now bljones is part of the problem. Your taking a serious subject, and making a joke out of it in order to discredit the main points. I would prefer to get more feedback from people who have some respect for others concerns. I don't think you R&R "regulars" are as interested with my concerns as much as you are with keeping your "leeway". Obviosly.

Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:43 pm

What about Freedom of Speach?
It's very simple, if you don't like whats on TV turn it off, if you don't like whats in the rants don't go there! The rants can get very rough, thats for sure, I happen to like it. You on the other hand, don't. Thats fine, don't go there. I'm sure that you like to visit sites that I wouldn't ever consider visiting and posibilly find offensive. thats fine as well. We can't please everyone, can we?

BWD
JHC;)