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Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:44 am

notchback wrote: Ain't nothing like resurrecting a post that's been dead for almost 9 years.

and beating it to death all over again...

Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:58 pm

What do you mean directly across the battery? When I do capacitors I go battery + goes to capacitor + , capacitor + goes to amp +, amp-and capacitor - go to ground(body).

About the grounding to battery, thats what I thought would happen. I know the body will have quite a bit of resistance built up in it. Thanks.

Back to the alternator question, is your alternator charging the battery at idle?

Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:48 pm

oops sorry if i was an accidental necromancer i was more thinking of a capaciter to keep the ignition system happy and running more than the winch itself the glory of using a rare earth altermator is that it is more efficient than ellectromagnetic altermators thus it gives more power for less strain on the engine

Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:03 pm

Electrolytic capacitors are used as a noise filter btw just think of any basic 2 channel crossover its bassically a choke and a capacitor. Two things you want to remmember about electrolytics 1 dont exceed the rated voltage 2. Dont reverse the polarity. Oh and im probably wrong but wouldnt the easiest and simplest thing to do would be to change the alternator pulley so that it revs higher? Also heat incures resistance so if you can find a way to cool your alternator it would in theory be more efficient i was helping to build some electric race cars once and at one point we had a co2 canister to cool the motors down but we scrapped that idea cant remmember why probably weight.

Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:51 pm

its gunna b bad wrote: What do you mean directly across the battery? When I do capacitors I go battery + goes to capacitor + , capacitor + goes to amp +, amp-and capacitor - go to ground(body).

Same concept different terminology...

Dale

Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:34 pm

To Cubed: I should have thought about your point of capacitors in crossover. Also when you have like a coaxial speaker, the capacitor will filter out different frequencies for the midwoofer,tweeter, supertweeter,etc. Good point. But...I do believe those wouldn't be electrolytic capacitors then, maybe Dale should answer what type of capacitor that would be. Pretty much my knowledge on capacitors comes down to just car audio. And yes, you could change the alternator pulley but it will greatly reduce the reliability of it. Lets say you revved the engine to 5k rpm, that would mean the alternator is spinning at approxamitley 20k. I'm pretty sure bearing would not last long at that speed

To Dale: So when I install capacitors ,they are directly across the battery. Now how come they don't discharge if they are connected that way? I don't understand how that is.

You said this: As for bigger alternator stalling out motor comment... It takes horsepower to spin a alternator or generator while it is producing energy.... IF the engine "mechanically" does not have power enough to spin alternator it presently has it will not have enough power to spin bigger alternator under same "electrical" load conditions (brown out excluded for discussion)....

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with the mechanically underpowered part. An alternator will produce its max amperage a little bit past idle. So yes whatever horsepower it takes to make the engine idle is what it takes to spin the alternator at almost max output. And then about not being able to spin the bigger alternator if it cant spin the smaller one...well how would an engine not be able to spin the smaller one? If the engine cant spin the alternator, then that means the engine cant run(crank drives alternator).

Remember, the problem is his vehicle is dying. I believe it is because his alternator cannot keep up. His alternator is 65 amps whilst he is drawing 65+, therefore the ignition system cannot get the power it needs so it will shut off.

And yes, I did grossly underestimate what a winch draws. I expected in my head 100 amps for a normal pull and then like 150 working hard. Didn't expect it to pull 2 or 300 amps.

Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:49 pm

I think you need to go back and reread whole thread... Everything has been explained at some point....

Dale

Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:50 pm

For the past many posts i've been wanting to see you refute this one reason why his motor is stalling.

His motor is stalling because he is drawing more than 65 amps when using the winch, therefore his ignition system fails because he doesnt have any power going to it, which in turn kills the engine.

All you say is "As for bigger alternator stalling out motor comment... It takes horsepower to spin a alternator or generator while it is producing energy.... IF the engine "mechanically" does not have power enough to spin alternator it presently has it will not have enough power to spin bigger alternator under same "electrical" load conditions (brown out excluded for discussion).... " which makes no sense...Like i've said, if the alternator is producing more than what the winch/car draws at the same time then hes fine, if it doesnt then its going to die. Somehow in your reasoning you are implying that since his car dies with the stock one then a bigger one wont do anything. I know for a fact that is not true.

You do know the battery just handles starting the car, brownages, and spikes right? alternator powers the car while running.

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:49 am

If I were you, I would sell the 8,000 lb winch and buy a 2k or 3k ATV winch and a deep cycle battery. You are using an 8,000 lb winch to pull a 1000 lb rail ! I've got a 3,000 lb ATV winch on my Baja and with a snatch block I've pulled it out of a mud hole where it was sitting flat on the pan with no problems.
I bought the deep cycle to run the winch and 4 100 watt Daylighters and 2 HID lights + stereo amps.The 75 amp alt has no trouble keeping up.
I love answering questions that are so old people forgot they ask them !!!

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:21 am

GonzoTx wrote: If I were you, I would sell the 8,000 lb winch and buy a 2k or 3k ATV winch and a deep cycle battery. You are using an 8,000 lb winch to pull a 1000 lb rail ! I've got a 3,000 lb ATV winch on my Baja and with a snatch block I've pulled it out of a mud hole where it was sitting flat on the pan with no problems.
I bought the deep cycle to run the winch and 4 100 watt Daylighters and 2 HID lights + stereo amps.The 75 amp alt has no trouble keeping up.
I love answering questions that are so old people forgot they ask them !!!

To whom is this directed.... If it is me... The winch (the 10,000 I refereed to) is on my Jeep, and it has pulled out a Cheyy pickup that was buried up to the frame in mud..... Only thing we had to do is tie back of jeep off to a tree because jeep is so light we could have slid jeep into mud hole with the winch....

Dale

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:35 am

its gunna b bad wrote: To Cubed: I should have thought about your point of capacitors in crossover. Also when you have like a coaxial speaker, the capacitor will filter out different frequencies for the midwoofer,tweeter, supertweeter,etc. Good point. But...I do believe those wouldn't be electrolytic capacitors then, maybe Dale should answer what type of capacitor that would be. Pretty much my knowledge on capacitors comes down to just car audio. And yes, you could change the alternator pulley but it will greatly reduce the reliability of it. Lets say you revved the engine to 5k rpm, that would mean the alternator is spinning at approxamitley 20k. I'm pretty sure bearing would not last long at that speed

To Dale: So when I install capacitors ,they are directly across the battery. Now how come they don't discharge if they are connected that way? I don't understand how that is.

You said this: As for bigger alternator stalling out motor comment... It takes horsepower to spin a alternator or generator while it is producing energy.... IF the engine "mechanically" does not have power enough to spin alternator it presently has it will not have enough power to spin bigger alternator under same "electrical" load conditions (brown out excluded for discussion)....

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with the mechanically underpowered part. An alternator will produce its max amperage a little bit past idle. So yes whatever horsepower it takes to make the engine idle is what it takes to spin the alternator at almost max output. And then about not being able to spin the bigger alternator if it cant spin the smaller one...well how would an engine not be able to spin the smaller one? If the engine cant spin the alternator, then that means the engine cant run(crank drives alternator).

Remember, the problem is his vehicle is dying. I believe it is because his alternator cannot keep up. His alternator is 65 amps whilst he is drawing 65+, therefore the ignition system cannot get the power it needs so it will shut off.

And yes, I did grossly underestimate what a winch draws. I expected in my head 100 amps for a normal pull and then like 150 working hard. Didn't expect it to pull 2 or 300 amps.

Riddle me this....

Initial load on electrical system is 90 amps!

Alternator/generator only puts out 50 amps.

Time is over at several hours....

What is results?

And with winch, amperage load increases as resistance to movement of object it is attached to increases till some breaks or shorts out...

http://www.4wheelparts.com/off-road/winchadvisor.aspx#electricalconsidertaion

Note some of the amperage loads vs pull capacity in PDF file below...

http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/images/ebay/whichwinch.pdf

Dale

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:27 pm

INITIAL load is 90 amps. So it uses the power from the battery to start the vehicle, just like I have said multiple times. AGAIN, if the alternator puts out 65 amps and the car uses 60 amps then 5 amps is being put into the battery for storage,spikes,brownages, and starting.

Yes a bigger battery would work because the alternator would have stored more power in the battery.

I am only wanting to know why you think a bigger alternator wouldnt work and to refute what I have posted here.

Im also curious why you wanted a hand throttle on your jeep?
Hook up an ammeter on your jeep at idle,1500 rpm and 3000rpm. There is probably only a 200 amp difference from idle to 3000 and none from 1500 to 3000.

Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:18 pm

its gunna b bad wrote: INITIAL load is 90 amps. So it uses the power from the battery to start the vehicle, just like I have said multiple times. AGAIN, if the alternator puts out 65 amps and the car uses 60 amps then 5 amps is being put into the battery for storage,spikes,brownages, and starting.

Yes a bigger battery would work because the alternator would have stored more power in the battery.

I am only wanting to know why you think a bigger alternator wouldnt work and to refute what I have posted here.

Im also curious why you wanted a hand throttle on your jeep?
Hook up an ammeter on your jeep at idle,1500 rpm and 3000rpm. There is probably only a 200 amp difference from idle to 3000 and none from 1500 to 3000.

First you did not answer riddle you gave a solution which is not in the equation.....

Hand throttle on jeep is to keep RPM up to best output of alternator while driver seat is unoccupied..

Dale

Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:50 pm

I dont know if I get what you are asking in the riddle but I presume the alternator will have charged up the battery by the time span of several hours of running. That only depends on how much the car draws while normally running. If its under 50 amps then you will be fine. If its over 50 amps I dont even know how you got the car started besides charging the battery or jumpstarting it and keeping the cables hooked up.

Your hand throttle is virtually useless...Like I've stated many times, your alternator produces its max output just a couple hundred RPM over idle. A generator is a different story, leave it just idling for too long and it will drain the batteries stored power and die. That same stored battery power that the generator put into it. Take an ammeter to it and see if it proves me different.

This is in supercharger terms but it gets the point across:
alternator=fixed displacement(positive displacement)
generator= centrifugal

Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:53 pm

Quote: Your hand throttle is virtually useless...Like I've stated many times, your alternator produces its max output just a couple hundred RPM over idle.

That is my point with hand throttle .... THE FEW HUNDRED RPM...

The point of the riddle is you are reading only what you want to see, not what is being put forth....

You have solutions, but you are not fully analyzing the problem or comprehending what is being written and thinking through the "problem"....

Dale

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:07 pm

Oh, if you want those dozen or so amps, go get yourself a hand throttle.

The riddle...I will read what you put and say the most generic thing I can...which I already have by the way.

Quote: but I presume the alternator will have charged up the battery by the time span of several hours of running

Tell me i'm missing something...

Alternator puts out 50. Takes 90 to start it. Battery starts the car so has nothing to do with alternator. If battery has 90 amps stored up car will start. If battery is too small and cant store 90 amps, car will not start. Once car gets started if it draws under 50 amps it will stay running while charging the battery for the next start, if its over then it will die. To be honest Dale, I really just can't go any simpler than this.
You haven't given me enough to know those things so I have to say that so you dont ring my neck on something stupid.

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:24 pm

Here is problem written in different way...

The "system" is continuous drawing (consuming) 90 amps the alternator is only putting out 50 continuously, what state will battery be in say 6 hours....

Dale

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:44 pm

Okay, you said INITIAL startup. So now you are saying 90 amps continuous while running the car with a 50 amp alternator. And asking how the battery will be. Well I would say the battery would be fine because it wouldnt even be used. Lets say you were able to start the car, it would die shortly after so I would guess the battery would be a very decent battery in terms of its hydro levels and battery life. If it was say matching the 50 amps then that battery would be toast in no time due to its continual charging and releasing. Which im sure, that is the answer you are looking for?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:43 am

its gunna b bad wrote: Okay, you said INITIAL startup. So now you are saying 90 amps continuous while running the car with a 50 amp alternator. And asking how the battery will be. Well I would say the battery would be fine because it wouldnt even be used. Lets say you were able to start the car, it would die shortly after so I would guess the battery would be a very decent battery in terms of its hydro levels and battery life. If it was say matching the 50 amps then that battery would be toast in no time due to its continual charging and releasing. Which im sure, that is the answer you are looking for?

OK I will back up a bit I meant "initially"as the problem begins here .... My Bad. wrong wording...

The answer is "discharged"... Leading to brown out...

Dale

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:19 pm

Okay so the battery 'discharges'. I don't get where you are going with it...?
You don't need the battery for the vehicle to run.
Riddle me this...
Go start your jeep and take off one of the battery cables
Whats the result?

I am just about done with this thread. I kept replying because I thought I could possibly learn something from you, but this is being dragged out too much with questions that arent being answered and such. So lets please just get to the point.