TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:23 am

Hi,

i'm interesting by a brazilian bus which is to sell for a good price and so I wants to know if it have some differences of quality between deutsch and brazilian bus ? :?
What are the differences between a deutsch 15 windows before 1963 and a brazilian 15 windows built in the '70th ?
I have already search this informations on the forum but don't find a post which tell about this...

Thanks a lot,
Florian.
PS : sorry for my english :oops: (i'm french)

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:45 am

Luckily this is an easy one.

The Brazilian buses are SHIT! They are near impossible to sell on as anyone with an once of knowlage on Vw`s won`t touch them!

The Brazilian built late model 15 windows are a country mile away in quality and value of a German 15 window and like for like you could probably buy at least 4 (if not more!) Brazilan ones for the cost of 1 German one.

I think that probably speaks for itself. :wink:

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:00 pm

I'm sure the German buses are of better quality/detail than the Brazillian ones.

But I think you may be exagerating a little bit.

Part of the ''shit'' that came out from VW do Brasil were made from old dies/presses/mouldings sent from Germany to Br.

For example the fittings/interior parts and a few powertrain parts in a German Bus are of better quality.

If you're skilled and willing to do so, why not get a cheapo Br unit and turn it into a good example, as you can get a good deal in one of them.

Good luck

Julio

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:53 pm

Have you ever driven a Brazilian bus Sweet Rides?

I have driven three 1975 Brazilian split buses a total of more than 300,000km and I have found the quality to be similar to German buses, in which I have driven about 100,000km. My buses were made in Brazil and shipped CKD to South Africa for assembly; they were originally sold alongside German 1975 baywindows as budget models under the name Fleetline.

I used to believe they were more prone to rust than German buses, but after driving Fleetlines for the past 15 years I haven't found any of them to be any more rust prone than my German splits. Body panel alignment isn't perfect and there's lots of splatter around welds, but those are the only quality issues I have noticed. Brazilian buses are every bit as tough and reliable as German buses.

1970s Brazilian splits are a hodge-podge of early and late parts: barndoor (pre-55) style cargo doors, pre-60 front door handles, 63 bodyshell, rear hatch with knuckle indent, 70s dual port 1600 engines with 12V alternator, etc. The Brazilian non-deluxe splits have the front VW emblem embossed in the nose, probably their most obvious difference.

There's nothing wrong with them. I have a fourth Fleetline in the bodyshop for restoration and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:39 pm

No, i haven`t driven one. But i have had a very good look around one as a local guy asked me to look at one for him that he wanted to buy.

I advised him that I thought it was a bad idea but he wouldn`t be budged. Everywhere I looked I was very dissapointed with then build and quality of finish. Absolutley nothing like the German buses. We took it for a test drive and apart from being very worn it drove o.k

It wasn`t until about 6 months later when this guy started going to the shows and looking at the German buses for comparison he became unhappy with the finish of his bus.

So he put it up for sale...

As far as I`m aware 6 months later it`s still for sale at a little over half what he paid for it and no takers...

There`s nothing actually wrong with it except that it`s a Fleetline and there seems to be almost no market for them.

At the end of the day they may look like a VW bus, but if you had presented one to any of the quality controll officers, back in the German Split Bus production days, they would have ordered it crushed - Immediately!!! :twisted:

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:20 pm

Sweet Rides wrote: No, i haven`t driven one. But i have had a very good look around one as a local guy asked me to look at one for him that he wanted to buy.

I advised him that I thought it was a bad idea but he wouldn`t be budged. Everywhere I looked I was very dissapointed with then build and quality of finish. Absolutley nothing like the German buses. We took it for a test drive and apart from being very worn it drove o.k

It wasn`t until about 6 months later when this guy started going to the shows and looking at the German buses for comparison he became unhappy with the finish of his bus.

So he put it up for sale...

As far as I`m aware 6 months later it`s still for sale at a little over half what he paid for it and no takers...

There`s nothing actually wrong with it except that it`s a Fleetline and there seems to be almost no market for them.

At the end of the day they may look like a VW bus, but if you had presented one to any of the quality controll officers, back in the German Split Bus production days, they would have ordered it crushed - Immediately!!! :twisted:

Let me get this straight. A brand new production vehicle is less sturdy than a 40 year old restored bus that has been likely welded on, subject to panel replacement and the twistings and twinkings of decades of service? I would say very unlikely, unless the restored bus had been literalyl taken apart and put back according to factory specs. I imagine the main thing Brazil buses have against them is they lack snob appeal. They just aren't the genuine thing. I remember when the Mexican 1600 engines began popping up and people declaring them inferior to remanufactured German engines. What a crock of crap that was. Old is old, new is new. You can't make something 40 years old ride like something brand new. If those Brazil buses were available in the US I'd snap one up in a second. They look rad. So what if they are a little rough in finish? What do you want? A show car that sits in the garage or a reliable, yet stylish vehicle you can drive?
--Dan

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:47 pm

Quote: At the end of the day they may look like a VW bus, but if you had presented one to any of the quality controll officers, back in the German Split Bus production days, they would have ordered it crushed - Immediately!!!

Looks like you're not keen with Q.C. around car makers inspection lines, especially old timers from the 60's...I doubt and I bet the crushing of spotty defect units would happen, even today.
VW is not a rocket science assembly line, especially in the 60's. If they were a ''perfect'' product, they wouldn't rust, understeer, the steering wheel wouldn't crack (along with all plastic interior parts), the engine wouldn't require special attention or any overhaul under 200K miles, the paint wouldn't fade, the doors would shut square, the rain wouldn't insist to enter even from the tiniest nooks (even the day after you had installed fresh seals and door rubbers), and the list goes on and on.

But hey,
Wouldn't those things part of the fun when you own a VW splitbus? :)

Cheers,

Julio

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:54 pm

I think Brazilian buses and their S.A. counterparts are cool. I would love a Fleetline, but I would *really* dig a Karmann Camper w/ pressed bumpers from Brazil!

Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:11 pm

The only one i ever saw was in newengland and it had rot in strange palces. I dont think they dipped them in Primer like the german ones.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:20 pm

[email protected] wrote: The only one i ever saw was in newengland and it had rot in strange palces. I dont think they dipped them in Primer like the german ones.

I suspect this is true. My buses live in a dry climate, so maybe my rust experiences are not representative. The conventional wisdom seems to be that they rust faster than German buses.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:06 pm

I'd put it down to the snob factor.............I had two fleetlines and was quite happy with both of them. There is no futher issues that I can point out that adds onto what Fig had to say, if anyone should know about QC and fleetlines then it's him.

Some people just like German busses actually being made in Germany.

Brazillian busses are unique (last splits built by VW anywhere in the world) and that's the way that they should be seen , buy one cause you like it, not because you want to make shedloads of money selling it on.

It's still a VW...............

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:46 am

Braukuche wrote: Sweet Rides wrote: No, i haven`t driven one. But i have had a very good look around one as a local guy asked me to look at one for him that he wanted to buy.

I advised him that I thought it was a bad idea but he wouldn`t be budged. Everywhere I looked I was very dissapointed with then build and quality of finish. Absolutley nothing like the German buses. We took it for a test drive and apart from being very worn it drove o.k

It wasn`t until about 6 months later when this guy started going to the shows and looking at the German buses for comparison he became unhappy with the finish of his bus.

So he put it up for sale...

As far as I`m aware 6 months later it`s still for sale at a little over half what he paid for it and no takers...

There`s nothing actually wrong with it except that it`s a Fleetline and there seems to be almost no market for them.

At the end of the day they may look like a VW bus, but if you had presented one to any of the quality controll officers, back in the German Split Bus production days, they would have ordered it crushed - Immediately!!! :twisted:

Let me get this straight. A brand new production vehicle is less sturdy than a 40 year old restored bus that has been likely welded on, subject to panel replacement and the twistings and twinkings of decades of service? I would say very unlikely, unless the restored bus had been literalyl taken apart and put back according to factory specs. I imagine the main thing Brazil buses have against them is they lack snob appeal. They just aren't the genuine thing. I remember when the Mexican 1600 engines began popping up and people declaring them inferior to remanufactured German engines. What a crock of crap that was. Old is old, new is new. You can't make something 40 years old ride like something brand new. If those Brazil buses were available in the US I'd snap one up in a second. They look rad. So what if they are a little rough in finish? What do you want? A show car that sits in the garage or a reliable, yet stylish vehicle you can drive?
--Dan

ERRR... I don`t think Fleetlines could be considered "Brand new production vehicles"??? As production stopped in the 70`s! I think you`re getting confused with the Brazilian bay window production, which is not what this threads about. :wink:

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:53 am

Sweet Rides wrote: ERRR... I don`t think Fleetlines could be considered "Brand new productiopn vehicles"??? As production stopped in the 70`s! I think you`re getting confused with the Brazilian bay window production, which is not what this threads about. :wink:

It seems like the 70s were just yesterday. Yeah, my mistake. I thought they were still making them. I forgot they switched over to the odd looking bay windows :oops:
--Dan

Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:51 am

Sweet Rides wrote: Luckily this is an easy one.

The Brazilian buses are SHIT! They are near impossible to sell on as anyone with an once of knowlage on Vw`s won`t touch them!

The Brazilian built late model 15 windows are a country mile away in quality and value of a German 15 window and like for like you could probably buy at least 4 (if not more!) Brazilan ones for the cost of 1 German one.

OK "Sweet Rides" seems like you're an expert.

Well here's our SHIT!

It's a '63 Brasilian original condition, 43 year old and still hanging together very well thank you. It has panels and fittings made from the same superior German presses and dies that you so admire.

When VW set up the factory in Sao Paulo they bequeathed some of the obscelete equipment from the German factory. They even went to the extent of exporting some of their workforce and a whole lot of their expertise to ensure the usual high VW standards were set in place for the new venture.

There was already a large ex-pat Germany community around the area of the new factory and the new German immigrants were made to feel very much at home. The quality control was carried out by these German immigrants and they in turn passed on their expertise to the local workers.

So you have second hand experience of a Brazilian Kombi, and it was a rusting shitty hulk. Well whoop de doo if I had a £ for every rusting shitty hulk I've seen, (German, South African, Brazilian) I'd be a rich man.

Sweeping genralisations are usually uninformed at best. I don't expect to change your mind but you've got to see a lot more Brazilian Buses before your opinion carries any weight with me.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:40 am

How do you tell if the bus is brazilian. This is a real question from someone who has no way of telling.

Thanks

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:22 am

IIRC, they all have the VW emblems pressed into the nose. I'm sure they say made in Brazil somewhere on them as well, they won't say "made in germany" either.

Early Brazilian buses were CKD I think, this info. probably doesn't apply to them. I believe they also imported German buses in prior to that, intact and complete.

Buy David Eccles book "the transporter guide" if you want lots of information, there are a couple of pages just on these buses.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:50 am

John Moxon wrote: OK "Sweet Rides" seems like you're an expert.

Well here's our SHIT!

Sweeping genralisations are usually uninformed at best. I don't expect to change your mind but you've got to see a lot more Brazilian Buses before your opinion carries any weight with me.

Ouch! #-o

:lol:

I'd love to have one too! :P

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:58 am

dieselnut wrote: IIRC, they all have the VW emblems pressed into the nose.
No they didn't. Only buses from the early '70s onward have the pressed logo. Fleetlines, which incidentally was a one year only (1975) model made for South Africa, had the pressed logo.

dieselnut wrote: I'm sure they say made in Brazil somewhere on them as well, they won't say "made in germany" either.
They have a serial # stamped in the engine bay "B123456" for example.
They have no M code plates or ID in the usual bus places.
Gauges too have Brasilian markings on the dials. There are odd spec differences in buses from the '60s, like the use of pressed bumpers on Kombis until 1968 and the use of high hinge doors, locks and handles.

Theses items weren't leftovers from the parts bin but a product of the inherited presses and dies from Germany.

dieselnut wrote: Early Brazilian buses were CKD I think, this info. probably doesn't apply to them. I believe they also imported German buses in prior to that, intact and complete.
Pre '57 Buses were all German and assembled by a company "Brasmotors". The first VW to leave the new Sao Paulo factory in 1957 was a Kombi.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:03 pm

carloscolt wrote: How do you tell if the bus is brazilian. This is a real question from someone who has no way of telling.

Thanks

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=121645&highlight=fleetline

Try the search button underneath "Classifieds" and search for Brazillian or Fleetline.

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:49 pm

John Moxon wrote: Sweet Rides wrote: Luckily this is an easy one.

The Brazilian buses are SHIT! They are near impossible to sell on as anyone with an once of knowlage on Vw`s won`t touch them!

The Brazilian built late model 15 windows are a country mile away in quality and value of a German 15 window and like for like you could probably buy at least 4 (if not more!) Brazilan ones for the cost of 1 German one.

OK "Sweet Rides" seems like you're an expert.

Well here's our SHIT!

It's a '63 Brasilian original condition, 43 year old and still hanging together very well thank you. It has panels and fittings made from the same superior German presses and dies that you so admire.

When VW set up the factory in Sao Paulo they bequeathed some of the obscelete equipment from the German factory. They even went to the extent of exporting some of their workforce and a whole lot of their expertise to ensure the usual high VW standards were set in place for the new venture.

There was already a large ex-pat Germany community around the area of the new factory and the new German immigrants were made to feel very much at home. The quality control was carried out by these German immigrants and they in turn passed on their expertise to the local workers.

So you have second hand experience of a Brazilian Kombi, and it was a rusting shitty hulk. Well whoop de doo if I had a £ for every rusting shitty hulk I've seen, (German, South African, Brazilian) I'd be a rich man.

Sweeping genralisations are usually uninformed at best. I don't expect to change your mind but you've got to see a lot more Brazilian Buses before your opinion carries any weight with me.

John, I`ve been in the U.k bus scene for 14 years, I`ve personally restored a "Vanfest Show Winner" with all the work done by myself. Which I brought back from a rotten wreck from Sweden using only og parts.

(This bus is the 66 double door green/white SAMBA, now B.W.A bus with turbo motor now owned by Ronnie)

I`ve also restored numerous splits for other people and a have owned dozens of buses over the years.

So now your a little better informed on me, I`ll correct the statement which you reported I said, and didn`t...

I didn`t question the quality of the presses or parts used on the Brazilian buses. I actually use many Brazilian parts myself at the moment as I think, in some cases, they are of superior quality to the German parts - this especially applies to the current Gearbox mounts available.

I have had a very close look at well over 20 Brazilian built Fleetlines over the past 14 years and have not had need to question the quality of the parts on theses buses. Where they do, quite undisputedly, fall very short of the German Splits is in the build quality/quality of finish departments.

If you park up 2 buses of the same year in the same condition, one Brazilian and one German, the differences become apparent very quickly, even to the untrained eye.

But, you get what you pay for. If you`re after a cheap split then maybe a Brazilian bus is the way to go for many people. As I said before, like for like you could buy 4 Fleetline 15 windows for the price of 1 German one.

Although they would never be a vehicle for me, the factor of cost may make them a very appealing way for people buying their first split, to get into the scene without having to remortgage their house!