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Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:25 pm

KTPhil wrote: Sudden richness in all four would not be injectors; they would not all fail at once. If it is throttle related, maybe your throttle valve switch is faulty. Maybe it is shorting pins such that it thinks you are flooring it when you aren't, and it richens up the mixture on all four.

AAR testing is easy. It should pass air cold, and not when warmed about 5 minutes. Just blow through the air cleaner hose and see.

i forgot to mention that the TPS issue did occur to me, and below are some pictures I snapped. the strange thing is when you open the throttle you hear all 10 clicks and so I assumed that if I didnt hear some or similar, it would indicate a short. anyway, here are the pictures... see what you guys think.

i have yet to test pressure with any accuracy, so I suppose that will lead us to the next step. assuming it is NOT excess pressure, what could it be? i thought about weak spark not burning the fuel all the way, but that doesn't really explain the sudden surge every so often, nor does it make any sense since all the ignition related stuff is brand new and appears to be functioning perfectly.

here are a few shots of the #4 spark plug. this is after it got *slightly* better when I replaced the ends of the IAT sensor, but as you can see still very rich and sooty black, it was even worse the first time I pulled it. if this makes any sense... the car seems to run better when cold than when warmed up, as if the extra air coming in from the AAR is balancing out the overrich mixture. this makes me think its either pressure or something that controls overall mixture, as the richness doesnt seem to be a result of something else, ie. an airleak.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:44 pm

Depending on year, the TPS not only has the 10 contacts (for "accel pump"-like enrichment), but also has a full-throttle contact (for enrichment when you floor it), and a closed-throttle contact (for fuel cut-off on overrun). The full-throttle contacts might be stuck, over-richening it.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:17 pm

KTPhil wrote: Depending on year, the TPS not only has the 10 contacts (for "accel pump"-like enrichment), but also has a full-throttle contact (for enrichment when you floor it), and a closed-throttle contact (for fuel cut-off on overrun). The full-throttle contacts might be stuck, over-richening it.

mine is 1971, the D system IIRC. in the pictures, I think I see the two kinds of contacts you're talking about. neither look stuck together though...

Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:48 pm

JSMskater wrote: KTPhil wrote: Sudden richness in all four would not be injectors; they would not all fail at once. If it is throttle related, maybe your throttle valve switch is faulty. Maybe it is shorting pins such that it thinks you are flooring it when you aren't, and it richens up the mixture on all four.

AAR testing is easy. It should pass air cold, and not when warmed about 5 minutes. Just blow through the air cleaner hose and see.

i forgot to mention that the TPS issue did occur to me, and below are some pictures I snapped. the strange thing is when you open the throttle you hear all 10 clicks and so I assumed that if I didnt hear some or similar, it would indicate a short. anyway, here are the pictures... see what you guys think.

i have yet to test pressure with any accuracy, so I suppose that will lead us to the next step. assuming it is NOT excess pressure, what could it be? i thought about weak spark not burning the fuel all the way, but that doesn't really explain the sudden surge every so often, nor does it make any sense since all the ignition related stuff is brand new and appears to be functioning perfectly.

here are a few shots of the #4 spark plug. this is after it got *slightly* better when I replaced the ends of the IAT sensor, but as you can see still very rich and sooty black, it was even worse the first time I pulled it. if this makes any sense... the car seems to run better when cold than when warmed up, as if the extra air coming in from the AAR is balancing out the overrich mixture. this makes me think its either pressure or something that controls overall mixture, as the richness doesnt seem to be a result of something else, ie. an airleak.

Don't forget the charging system.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:03 pm

Tram wrote:

Don't forget the charging system.

thats what my gut feeling was but I've got 12v all over the place... if it is a charging/weak spark issue, its downstream of the dist. since the pertronix and points make no change and the timing is rock solid. regulator is a moot point, I'm running an Alt.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:14 pm

JSMskater wrote: Tram wrote:

Don't forget the charging system.

thats what my gut feeling was but I've got 12v all over the place... if it is a charging/weak spark issue, its downstream of the dist. since the pertronix and points make no change and the timing is rock solid. regulator is a moot point, I'm running an Alt.

12v is too low. That's battery voltage. You should be at 13.7- 14 volts running.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:23 pm

And low voltage will make it run rich.
13.7-14.2 Volts.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:44 pm

Well, thanks to Rosevillian and Georg, I got things to run better. Before anything, I noticed if I pulled either right side plug, engine would not change (number 2), or change half (number one). I changed out the right side injectors, mostly due to number one needle not being perfect and engine running symptoms. Now, start up is easier, and it has no visible smoke, and the smell is barely noticeable.

After the engine ran for a few minutes, I pulled the A.A.R. hose of the air cleaner. The A.A.R. was pulling vacuum, so how do I correct this?

Also, the M.P.S. works perfectly: closing the line instantly starts stalling the engine in about a second (did not want to stall it).

Oh, and the rubber spark plug disks, do they go on the inside out outside?

Joe, I cannot find the electronic Charging System F.A.Q. by Jim Adney, but it is volts when warm. I will see if I can find it.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:08 pm

Tram wrote: JSMskater wrote: Tram wrote:

Don't forget the charging system.

thats what my gut feeling was but I've got 12v all over the place... if it is a charging/weak spark issue, its downstream of the dist. since the pertronix and points make no change and the timing is rock solid. regulator is a moot point, I'm running an Alt.

12v is too low. That's battery voltage. You should be at 13.7- 14 volts running.

at the alt or at the connections going to the ECU? I'm talking about the connections, not the alt. I'll check the alt tonight with the VOM.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:12 pm

JSMskater wrote: Tram wrote: JSMskater wrote: Tram wrote:

Don't forget the charging system.

thats what my gut feeling was but I've got 12v all over the place... if it is a charging/weak spark issue, its downstream of the dist. since the pertronix and points make no change and the timing is rock solid. regulator is a moot point, I'm running an Alt.

12v is too low. That's battery voltage. You should be at 13.7- 14 volts running.

at the alt or at the connections going to the ECU? I'm talking about the connections, not the alt. I'll check the alt tonight with the VOM.

At the battery when running.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:41 pm

Tram wrote: JSMskater wrote: Tram wrote: JSMskater wrote: Tram wrote:

Don't forget the charging system.

thats what my gut feeling was but I've got 12v all over the place... if it is a charging/weak spark issue, its downstream of the dist. since the pertronix and points make no change and the timing is rock solid. regulator is a moot point, I'm running an Alt.

12v is too low. That's battery voltage. You should be at 13.7- 14 volts running.

at the alt or at the connections going to the ECU? I'm talking about the connections, not the alt. I'll check the alt tonight with the VOM.

At the battery when running.

thanks geo! :D

Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:46 am

I'm looking at buying a 68 Squareback with original F.I. thats been sitting since 83... I'd like to avoid towing it and just drive it home. What are some of the things I should do before trying to start it? Its been stored in a garage. All I can think of is to check the tires for rot and brakes for function... and replace the plugs, maybe wires and the distributor components. And flush the tank and change the oil of course. Fuel lines?

Obviously I'll be inspecting all these things and wont know if they're bad til I see the vehicle.

Any other thoughts? I've never owned a F.I. VW... just a Type 4 bus and a 74 bug both with carbs.

Thanks

Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:53 am

I don't think you're that good or lucky! Just trailer it home! :evil:

Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:34 am

nhopk wrote: I'm looking at buying a 68 Squareback with original F.I. thats been sitting since 83... I'd like to avoid towing it and just drive it home. What are some of the things I should do before trying to start it? Its been stored in a garage. All I can think of is to check the tires for rot and brakes for function... and replace the plugs, maybe wires and the distributor components. And flush the tank and change the oil of course. Fuel lines?

Obviously I'll be inspecting all these things and wont know if they're bad til I see the vehicle.

Any other thoughts? I've never owned a F.I. VW... just a Type 4 bus and a 74 bug both with carbs.

Thanks

First, congratulations if it becomes yours.

Next, plan on at least a full week to get it started. The owner may not be up to it, so I would check first. I would first replace the rubber brake hoses, drain and replace the brake fluid with D.O.T.-5, and go through the whole system. Calipers can freeze, so be certain they are not. Tire check is a good idea, and minor sidewall crazing you can get away with. All this would make it tow able in a few days, then you could move on to the other things if you had the time. I would not remove the fuel tank, but drain it from the bottom. At the same time, check the condition of the sock, which helps filter the fuel. Replace the filter on top of the fuel pump, mounted on the front beam, and all fuel lines, including the ones on the injectors. Then, do a full maintenance, except replacing the condenser, which are no longer available, and the originals never fail. I would replace the battery, and make sure it has a full charge before installing it. Have a fire extinguisher handy, and turn the key to the start position; you should hear a click, pump run, then double click. If so, cycle the key a few times to build pressure in the empty lines, then give it a try. Do not touch the gas petal until you are started. If you do get it running, I would let it get good and warmed up, and check to see that everything is normal.

I would test it around the block before driving to far. If it seems fine, have an adventure. If your gut is that it is not right, best tow it and be safe.

Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:40 pm

Thanks for the advice.... yeah, I'm going to look at the 68 thats been stored, and another 72 thats a daily driver in the same price range and decide which is worth it. I'd much rather have a 69- over a 70+, but if the 68 is too rotten I'll either get the 72 or keep waiting for a decent 60's.

I just dont like the 70's bodystyle as much.

Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:09 pm

nhopk wrote: Thanks for the advice.... yeah, I'm going to look at the 68 thats been stored, and another 72 thats a daily driver in the same price range and decide which is worth it. I'd much rather have a 69- over a 70+, but if the 68 is too rotten I'll either get the 72 or keep waiting for a decent 60's.

I just dont like the 70's bodystyle as much.

If you got the welding skills, I would say some rot is fine. Donor metal is available, and if everything else is in order, not a bad deal. Someone should save it, if possible.

If you do not get the '68, you could get the '72 to learn on. When you find the right one, sell the first.

Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:36 am

architect_7 wrote: If you do not get the '68, you could get the '72 to learn on. When you find the right one, sell the first.

Those are my thoughts. From talking to the owner and looking at the pictures, it looks like the worst of it will be dry rotted plastics and rubbers. The engine doesn't even look dusty.

Hopefully I'll get to drive out tomorrow.

I'm thinking that the greatest concern will be cancer..... engines can be fixed, brakes can be fixed, interior can be fixed. Granted these things affect price. The standard VW run around.

Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:55 am

Do not attempt to drive any FI car that has been sitting for any length of time without replacing the fuel lines.
I would doubt that a car that has been sitting since 1983, will even attempt to start, without major work, such as flushing the fuel system.

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:55 pm

:o "drain and replace the brake fluid with D.O.T.-5"

Is this not compatable with older systems. Just wondering :?:

Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:52 pm

Hey fellas long time no see! I was looking through Phil's FI manual and found this troubleshooting guide. The highlighted is happening to me.... still. Forty pages later. Any ideas?