TheSamba.com :: View topic - Camper Special Rebuild Thread (Solexes@hotmail.com)

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:16 am

I feel like Rodney Dangerfield

"--- Whoo tough crowd...."

But in the end - I agree with IFBwax - we ARE the coolest people on the internet - and we ARE a big family...

a nice big disfunctional family :lol:

Let me just say...

Choice has been made -

Project will be ongoing -

Check here for results -

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:18 am

Holy S#&t! I WANT to read about his experience. I suppose that if I didn't want to hear about it or the Camper Special I would..... hmmmm.... maybe..... not follow this thread. :roll:

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:19 am

solexes, it appears that another can of worms has been opened thats really going to do no one very much good..

I still don't understand why some certain individuals believe that the VW Bus engine is not meant to be manipulated, why are these people so backward and closed to the fact that we already have results and a steller reputation when providing these engines and kits to clients pretty much in all operating climates from Alaska to Costa Rica (one in Mexico City too!).

The Camper Special was designed in 1999, that first test engine is still running in Brent and Rebecca's Bus and it's their primary vehicle. They have driven it half way across the US and towed vehicles in the middle of the summer behind it. Since this engine was built revisions have been made numerous times because we know there is always a better way and I am intent on finding it. This is not a typical underdeveloped hodge podge of an engine combo that was put together by some chevy mechanic, it is a professionally configured, thoroughly tested engine that has been proven, we know exactly what it does, how it does it and more importantly have taken the time to understand WHY.

Looks like I now know what this week's rant will be on my Radio Show and it's dedicated to ratwell and thiose like him that believe that tomorrows aircooled VW engine was built yesterday. It'll be point blank, it'll be firm and it'll also be funny as hell with some sound effects so make sure you listen in!

Solexes, get ready for EVERY thread and post that you make on this subject to end up being controversial and taken off topic by those that HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO EXPERIENCE with what you will be working with, these people also have a closed mind that is incapable of accepting change or alteration.

I personally appreciate confrontation and the things that come with it, so if you are up for the challenge I say let the ball bounce and lets see how high it will go!

In the words of wisdom of my Dad that I live by daily "The only way around trouble is straight through the damn middle".

That route has always worked for me.. Let's go.

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:47 am

Jake -

I've been a member on TheSamba since about 2000 - and in that time I've been involved in a lot of flame wars. Heck - that seems to be the "Status quo" in most every forum for any subject. Forums are a place for fanatics of any given hoby - and just like any other hoby - there are those who argue pro or con on any given issue - and since we're fanatics - it can be taken to "the next level" of argument.

Also - because of the fanaticism of us fanatics - anyone who tried to change the game and the rules is looked upon as someone who is trying to make things benefit only him, when in reality it's about benefiting the whole comunity.

If you think this is bad - try telling people in the Model T Ford Club forums that they should regrind Chevy Cranks for their old Model T engines because they're better, stronger, and in general work better. Some will have a stroke you even mentioned putting a chevy part into an old ford. But - the results prove it IS better. That doesn't mean people will like it.

Inovators will be shunned - just as purists will be seen as "old fuddy duddys." There is a time and place for both. Some people love stock - others love modified. Stock is great for concourse restorations, pure history, and maybe the thrill of having something "original - as VW made it." Inovators love the thrill of doing something new and improving on the old. What fascinates me about your kit is - you keep it as close to stock as possible - yet get these types of results. Its like the old Model T method of flatening the tubes on the radiators so they actualy cool right. Or shaving the head down to increase HP and compression.

No offence to the purists - but I'll take my chances with the inovators on something that may very well become a daily driver. I'd rather take the change to get great results above the norm - than go with proven.

Sure - I could have gone with Boston Bob and been happy - and had a reliable engine.

But - I wanted more....so I shelled out the money based off of testimonials of others.

Yah - its a DYI kit - but hey - :lol: THIS way I will know more about my engine than in any other instance.

My saying is "Anyone who stops learning has stopped living..."

Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:00 am

Solexes, great post and totally accurate..

All I can say further is that we, as the entire aftermarket have had more experience with the manipulation of this engine than the FACTORY did!

We also do not have bean counters keeping our innovative ways and changes from occuring. Many people have a fasle misinerpretation of the way things really work at a place as big as VW!

The engineers make things work, but the accounting department directs funds where they see fit. The engineers did a great job and provided an engine that lastes forever and made notable and acceptable power when the speed limit was 50 MPH, or even 55 MPH on the interstate.

Here we have no rules, no regulations and the bottom line is far exceeded by the red line of a tachometer.. thats because the better results we get, the more effective we are with manipulation the more things will sell! This is because the results we attain are shared by the believers and those who experience the creations and they tell people!

Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:22 am

I'd say you could have probably had that engine running like a song by now if not for posting all this "Camper Special vs. Stock Nazi" talk...

Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:30 am

Lol - right now - I'm just waiting for the kit....I can only work on the bus on the weekends - as it's in Tucson right now (see previous posts on Parking in Bisbee). Will update as the project continues - especialy this weekend with the teardown of the GD engine.

Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:50 am

*NOTE*

Due to the possibility that things will go south on here - and the thread degenerates - I will begin construction of a web page to mirror my results and posts found on here. I will also post an e-mail address there for anyone to contact me regarding ONLY my build.

I will continue in this thread.

Lets keep it clean...I'd like to provide you all with my insights as I believe it would be valuble....

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:25 am

Ya know what this is all about..... EXCITMENT! Bottom Line. A man is getting ready to drop in a new engine (put your desire in the blank = T1, T2, T3, T4 - Stroker, Stock, Camper Special) and he is excited about the whole event. The reason why I say that; is because, this is exactly what I'm feeling today and what I was feeling 5 month ago. Furthermore when I drove down to see the Hippo at the Hayden Ranch (mechanic) he had it running and I thought "DAMN! That is bad ass!! I was EXCITED. Unfortunatly it wasn't quite ready for prime time (wrong size push rod tubes) so my EXCITEMENT melted away. Then the Hippo is delivered and I express my EXCITEMENT on the SAMBA. Sure I got cut down a little bit.... :roll: But we all learned that everyone should just take a step back (including me) until some miles where loaded onto the new engine - Hhem - Hippo's reactor. All Ryan is doing (whether he admits it or not) is expressing his excitment about the upcoming process. If folks choose to question his build and Jake's motor's then that's ok but don't cock block the man's EXCITMENT level.

I haven't posted my TR for the new reactor till I drive to Yosemite this weekend. I will have put close to 1000 miles on the new reactor. This weekend will be the test piece for this motor. I have 5 grades to climb at 15% with elevation included. There will also be long flat freeway cruising. I may have had some terse words with Casey but his statement is true. Put some miles on the motor then report back. I agree.

I feel 1000 miles should be a great start. Plus I want to finish off the engine room with some detailing.

Ryan - Good luck and stay motivated

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:43 am

Hippo, almost 1000 miles already! Nice looks like you are getting some quality driving time. I am jealous, it has been snowing and below 15 in baltimore recently. I am dying to do some cruising as well!

Solexes,
I think in the end the only way to get others to believe will be for us to have an engine shootout that rates, hp, torque, temps all around. Then these stats can be compiled in a way that others can see the proof and be done with it, make it a sticky at the top of the page or a link to the aircooledtech forums. I also think it would be nice to take these numbers with a loaded camper to show the worse case scenarion. I guarantee a loaded camper special towing a trailer up a hill will run cooler than a stock engine on a flat surface, I had my previous engine dialed in very well and it it still hovered around 375-400 with maxes as 410-20 (dakota digital gauge). Still have yet to peak 350 on my head temps in the camper special loaded going up a hill on i-83 at 80mph! 8) I will be taking a nice roadtrip this summer and I will be a good guinea pig for these numbers. I will be driving a 79 westfalia with 3 passengers loaded with gear, and towing a custom westfalia trailer(pics coming soon) with full bike rack and gear loaded in the trailer. My father in law will be following me in his 76 westfalia with stock engine rebuild. He will not be towing and will only have two passengers. He has already stated that he will not be able to keep up and I shall lead the pack so I am not flying into the back of him. He has been in my camper special and says it feels like it has twice the engine power and if you look at the numbers it basically does. I will keep all posted once the trip is underway! Both of our busses are in ideal running order and shall be great for comparison! He is already set on buying a camper special that I will build for him , so he will not be offended by what the results yield in the end!

From your posts I can tell you are an intellegent guy and I think your site will be very helpful for this topic. I think most importantly you should document cost so others can see what that they would have to spend to build a camper special and install as opposed to spending less on a stock rebuild! Keep every last receipt!

Lastly I have been keeping a very accurate log book of my camper special, including oil changes valve adjustments etc. I also have been documenting my gauge readings so that I can see if the numbers diminish over time or if they will even get better once the engine is broken in. Still just under 1000 miles! :roll:

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:43 am

While you are waiting for the kit to arrive.....

1) Get all of the engine tin together and off to the powdercoater or paint it yourself. Don't forget the injection stuff or the fan shroud. Do not tear apart the fan as it is a balanced unit and you will never get it back together correctly, blasted and clear coated is fine.

2) Make sure the fuel delivery system is complete and clean. Fill lines, fuel tank, pump, filter, and fuel rails. Fuel gauge sending unit any good in there?

3) Send those injectors off for cleaning and calibration. They come back with new hoses and seals (although I have a spare set of each in my tool box).

4) Plan on replacing all of the fuel lines and vapor lines. Clean the inside of the hoses before you install them.

5) When you are disassembling the case, think about what hardware you need to keep and bag it all up indiviually, so that it can be cleaned up. Handy to have a tap and die set.

6) Get the engine case pretty clean using Simple Green and the car wash.

7) Get those gallery plugs out and tap it for the new ones. It takes a while.

8) After tapping for the new gallery plugs take the case to the transmission shop to flush out all of the crud in there including the metal shavings.

9) Order up the other stuff you want to replace that doesn't come with the kit or that you may or may not need depending on what shape your is in(FI intake runner hoses, throttle body seal, seals, CHT gauge and sender, OT gauge and sender unit, OP gauge and sender unit, engine to body seal, engine lid seal, temp sensor II, new clutch and heater cables, heater boxes and air hoses, vacuum lines). Lot of people spend some real money replacing the fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, cold start valve, thermotime switch and AAR, but I have not. I just inspected mine, tested it to make sure it was all within the Bentley and Probst/Bosch spec, and cleaned it all up. You will definitely understand the FI system when you are done.

10) Spend some quality time with the engine wiring harness, your volt ohm meter, soldering gun and clean all of the connections really well. Improve the tired old crimped connections with the soldered on new barrel connections.

11) Consider having your starter and alternator rebuilt. NO better time than now to do it.

Just my 2 cents.

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:45 am

VWBusrepairman wrote: I'd say you could have probably had that engine running like a song by now if not for posting all this "Camper Special vs. Stock Nazi" talk...

Thats right, if the "Nazis" would leave it alone and accept the change there would be no need!

Seriously, my days are spent behind the desk and nights are spent in the shop.. I have a computer at every workstation so the threads follow me around all day long...

But thats OK, there really is no such thing as bad press and I have learned this!

Controversy and drama are what people want to see, it keeps them coming back more than a well informed thread that has all the technical data in the world.

Drama can also be referred to as excitement, just as the hippo stated.

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:49 am

Double post! :wink:

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:59 am

All good points Randy! I would also like to know if the fuel injection system you are going to use is currently on a running engine? If not, you are starting with a lot of unknowns on top of a brand new engine, which may lead to more frustration. You will also need access to a wideband O2 sensor once you get it running in order to dial in the L-jet for the new combo. Keep up the good work, be methodical, and look forward to driving your first 'I built it myself' engine!

Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:08 am

Quote: Order up the other stuff you want to replace that doesn't come with the kit or that you may or may not need depending on what shape your is in(FI intake runner hoses, throttle body seal, seals, CHT gauge and sender, OT gauge and sender unit, OP gauge and sender unit, engine to body seal, engine lid seal, temp sensor II, new clutch and heater cables, heater boxes and air hoses, vacuum lines). Lot of people spend some real money replacing the fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, cold start valve, thermotime switch and AAR, but I have not. I just inspected mine, tested it to make sure it was all within the Bentley and Probst/Bosch spec, and cleaned it all up. You will definitely understand the FI system when you are done.

Well - the good news is - the PO of this bus was METICULOUS. It came with the ENTIRE FI system and Extra Parts (new). I have 2 brand new bosch injectors, and 2 rebuilt injectors (with paperwork detailing the results of the rebuild), I have two AFMs (one brand new), I also have i THINK two extra relays - one I know is still in the box. I also picked up an entire GD engine for $250 that was running and has all the original FI.

The bus was a runner and the tank was clean - with nothing but good gas in it.

The kit comes with a balanced clutch - so no need there....

Good point about the starter and alternator rebuild tho - didn't think of that. It would SUCK to get it all back together only to have the starter or alt crap out after 50 miles.

Yes - the sending unit is peachy fine.

I'm also going to do the tank filler and breather hoses while the engine is out.

Quote: 10) Spend some quality time with the engine wiring harness, your volt ohm meter, soldering gun and clean all of the connections really well. Improve the tired old crimped connections with the soldered on new barrel connections.

Luckily I have two wiring harnesses. One from 1977 and one from 1978. Are they the same? They basicly both look to be in really good shape.

Hippo - congrats on the 1000 miles. I look forward to the results of your trip! And yes ---- my excitement level is through the roof. I can't wait to have a nice powerfull smooth running bus.

Casey - I also agree about a "match up" to test these engines. It would also be kind of fun to have an endurance race. Say - some camepr special busses VS Boston Bob busses - VS stock. Have a "judge" in each one to monitor speed and readings. Load each up with equal weight - and see who wins.

Quote: But thats OK, there really is no such thing as bad press and I have learned this!

Controversy and drama are what people want to see, it keeps them coming back more than a well informed thread that has all the technical data in the world.

hahah --- I agree about 'no such thing as bad press.' And yes - Drama is what keeps people coming back.....no matter what we're talking about. Heck - just look at reality shows....

Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:22 am

77 and 78 engine wiring harnesses are the same. Test them though while they are out with your VOM. Tough to see a broken wire in there and it can drive you nuts trying to figure it out.

I was referring to the clutch cable, but that was not very clear in my post. :oops:

My FI system is currently working very well in my running (but stashed away for the Maine winter) bus, but I will be installing most of the FI stuff from my spare... but have tested good.... FI stash of parts. Freshly cleaned and calibrated injectors though. Good point about the wideband O2. I am going to throw in with my buddy and just buy an LM1.

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:03 pm

CLH ---

[quote]You will also need access to a wideband O2 sensor once you get it running in order to dial in the L-jet for the new combo. [quote]

How is this done? Is there a write up on this?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:02 pm

[quote="solexes@hotmail.com"]CLH ---

[quote]You will also need access to a wideband O2 sensor once you get it running in order to dial in the L-jet for the new combo. Quote:

How is this done? Is there a write up on this?
I don't know of a 'write up' per se, all in one place. Basically you have to understand how to adjust the parameters of the L-jet system (fuel pressure, wiper arm, flap tension, head temp sensor, etc.), hook up the wideband and get a baseline on your new running engine, and then adjust it to the AFR you want in conjunction with your CHT gauge. Not rocket science, just have to understand what all of the components do.

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:36 pm

Its pretty basic after you get it broken in..
Hook up the O2 sensor in the exhaust and run the LM1 following their instructions on start up.
pop open the AFM
clean off the glue on the tiny screw
Start motor
Adjust the wiper arm slightly and see the results (AFR) at 2500 and 4000.
Note that at move the arm and set it to the right AFR ('bout 14 to 1)
Now drive around under various loads and check the AFR going up a hill, flat driving etc to make sure its where you want it.
Adjust fuel shut off arm so when the stops the fuel pump stops.

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:13 pm

I don't think a poll is needed... there is plenty of info in this thread and others before it. And tons of other info on Jake and his contributions to the air cooled world and the type 4 out there to be had.

I commend Ryan for wanting to start a thread and keep it real... I have already cleaned some BS out of this thread once and will try and do so to keep it viable.. but if it goes WAY south... it's gone.