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Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:30 pm

I'm getting ready to run a new fuel line in the center tunnel. I also need to add a few wires between the engine compartment and dash for various guages and for a complex electric fuel pump control (pump is turned on by the oil pressure or starter switch - if oil pressure drops, fuel stops).

So, I'm thinking of running a flexible conduit in the tunnel to keep those new wires out of sight and away from being kicked. And if I do a few, why not the entire bundle? I want to change out the connectors on both ends of all those wires anyway, so perhaps I just run all new wires and run them all through conduit in the tunnel.

Is there some reason why VW didn't do this in the first place? Is it just the complexity of stringing the harness through both the body and pan? Should I be worried about losing some structural integrity?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:25 pm

Ian
What mods might you make that would compromise structural integrity?
I don't see a problem with your general plan, but that's just my opinion.
Steve

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:10 pm

I was thinking the exact same thing on Sunday when I was moving my chassis around. I was thinking everything in the tunnel, fuel, brake, and all electrical, there is plenty of room. You could run the metal flexible electrical style conduit or go rigid with some EMT, and pull just about whatever you wanted through it. Have a separate conduit for electrical, and put fuel & brake in the other.

Please let me know if you come up with something for this, as I am not quite there yet on mine, but defiantly want to go this route.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:19 pm

The tunnel and rockers give rigidity to the car - they are the items that replace a frame. If I drill a 1" hole in it, it'll be weaker. However, there are already several holes in it - the shifter, the rear access plate, the fuel line, etc. I don't think it'll be an issue - other than a certain Disney movie - I've never heard of a car splitting in two.

I'd be concerned running the brake line down the tunnel. If it leaks, it'll create a lot of rust where it can't be fixed.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:32 pm

I was planing on running all steel braided lines that would not have any joints inside my piece of conduit, chances of leaking I would think would be almost non-existent, but not impossible. It seems that it would be rare for a line to leak in the middle of a run, but if it was to leak, one could just pull out old and slide in a new one.

I can not see where an additional hole or two would compromise the strength of the tunnel. You could always weld a couple of pieces of flat stock afterwards to add strength to the parts you were worried about.

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:53 am

I believe the reason they did not run the wires through the tunnel is that there are several other item (Clutch cable, Gas line accelorator cable, Heater cable (in other cars), Break lines, etc. Believe it or not ther is so much going on in the tunnel if abrasion occured and exposed a wire it might shut down the car and tracing the broblem would be impossible.
I had to replace the the speedo cable in my 356 and it was a B____. It was like pushing a rope. round obsticles. I believe it would look very cool, but how much time and patience do you have?

Regards,

Saddlesore

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:20 pm

Pull string! Never run conduit without leaving in pull string. If you've got to add a wire, tie it and a new string to the existing string, and pull it through. If the wire shorts in the middle (very unlikely as there's nothing to abrade aganst in a conduit) then use the wire itself as your pull string.

The wires would be far more likely to get broken sitting on the floor. There's more room in that tunnel.

The hardest bit will be getting conduit in there in the first place.

Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:00 am

Ian, where are you thinking of bringing your stuff out the front? I was thinking the sweet spot would be just to the front side of where the body sits on the front hump. There is a bout a 1' space there between the hump and the front beam, where the fuel line comes out on the passenger side. You could come out on the drivers side with all the electrical & brake stuff.

I was thinking about cutting in an access hole, but leaving room in the front & back of the access hole to weld a piece of flat stock steel say 1.5" x 1/8" all the way across the tunnel from left to right to add some strength to the tunnel. The more I look down the tunnel, I think from the rear, you could stuff a couple of pieces of EMT all the way into the tunnel, so you would have a straight, clean, no joints, conduit to use for everything.

On mine, I have already jerked out all the heater related cables, don't need them. There is a lot of room below the shift linkage.

Keep the ideas coming.

Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:17 am

I'm thinking of the flexible conduit that is PVC sheathed with a stainless steel spring core. It's fairly rigid, but still flexible enough to bend a bit through the tunnel as needed and shouldn't become brittle over time. If it were strait up PVC, I'd be a bit worried that the constant vibration would eventually wear it down if it weren't secured - and I don't plan on opening up enough of the tunnel to secure it's entire length. Metal EMT stuff would be hard to work (can't bend it in the tunnel) and may eventually rust.

Could go with "smurf tube" - it's a ribbed plastic that's often used in home retrofit, but I think that it may be too flexible to easily install. Also, because it's ribbed, it's impossible to push wire through it, it's GOT to be pulled.

I was originally thinking of where you're describing, but looking at it in my car, it may be better to come out just inside the passenger compartment at the top of the tunnel. If it's up near the brake master cylander, it'll have to be watertight as it can get splashed and there doesn't seem to be a good run to get a bundle up to the dashboard. You could punch a hole in the body there, but I don't know if you'd be gaining much.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:47 pm

Sorry, I'm not a regular here, I just like Things. Here is shot of how one guy ran wires in his tunnel.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:37 pm

Sweet! I'm glad to see someone else who'se done it. Sunday, I picked up some flex conduit - it's not steel core, it's PVC spring core with a rubberized sheath. Nice stuff and flexible enough to do some tight bends. I picked up 2 runs, one for the front to rear, and one for left to right tail light.

I got the tail light one installed - if you look to the left or right of the engine compartment on top above and behind the tail light, you'll see an opening. Well, that opening goes all the way from one side to the other. I snaked a piece of conduit through there and put a 90 degree end on each side. This turned out to be a lot harder than I expected - there's a lot of ridges inside that void that the conduit kept snagging on. I had to first push a rigid wire through (went through the vents on the side for a good angle) then use that to pull rope, then used that to help pull the conduit.

I'll run my tail light wires through there to get them cleaned up and off the bottom of the engine compartment. I've picked up some terminal blocks for each side.

I've figured out where I want it to exit in the rear - opposide the guides for the clutch and throttle cable. It's a nice flat piece of metal of good size and doesn't seem like a stress point - the cables go through the other side so it should be fine.

I'm still not too certain about the front end though. Looking again at the above picture, you'll note there's a lot more reinforcement than just the center channel - it's much less structural in that car.

Also, I've been thinking a lot about including the brake line too... darn you Speed! :D

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:12 am

Sorry Ian, I was just not good with that brake line running along the pan from front to back up against the tunnel. It just looked like an afterthought by VW. Ian, are you putting a body lift on? I say this because that channel that Up yer Bug gives you, looks like it is also a nice space to run stuff. Just a thought I had when looking at mine, not to add more options into your confusion.

If you see that first picture, that is exactly where I was describing of coming out on the front. As for the second picture, whoever's Thing this is, has a body lift in place, I was thinking of coming out in the same place.

mk - who's Thing is this. I want to see more pictures of this, especially the front end. I was thinking of tying my front end skid stuff back to the same place they did on that first picture. It also looks as if they have rac-n-pinion steering? Would love to see a lot more picture of this set up, or talk to whoever built this.

Thanks,

Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:12 am

crawled through the URL - it's from a Manx in this gallery:

http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/album237?page=2

Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:19 am

I am not putting on a body lift, so coming out in the same place isn't ideal for me.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:06 am

I did it today!

In front:

This was the hardest bit. That's doubled steel, each layer is 1/8" - a freakin 1/4" of steel!! It took over an hour to cut this hole. Getting the conduit threaded into the front hole was also a pain - I couldn't reach in far enough to push it up. I ended up getting it close then slipping the nut over the handle of a pair of pliers, then pushed the handle into the conduit, pulled it up into position, then threaded on the nut.

All the way to the rear:

The hole in the rear is through much thinner material - like 1/16". Still took some doing, but was much easier than the front.

To cut the holes, I traced the conduit end, then drilled a series of holes just within that circle. I worked the drill to break the connecting bits, then used a dremel to clean the hole and make it the proper size.

I had to do a bit of cutting and bending under the rear seats in the tunnel to get it to fit correctly:

And the last pic, this is looking from where the right-rear wheel should be:

To get the conduit through, I grabbed a friend to help. First, I fitted the angle fitting for the forward hole onto the end of the conduit. It's a screw-on fit, but I added some epoxy to keep it in place. We pushed a pole through from the front to the rear access plate. I slipped a thin rope through the conduit's hole, then tied it to the pole. We then pulled the rope through and untied it. I punched a hole in the end of the conduit and threaded the rope through and tied it tight. While my friend fed the conduit into the tunnel, I pulled the rope from the rear until the conduit reached the rear access plate. I untied the rope and pulled it out, then we muscled the conduit through the hole in the rear. I tied a big loop with the rope and hooked it over the front fitted end of the conduit - I tied it such that I could easily untie it and pull it out after it was in place. We worked the conduit back and forth - me pulling the length from the rear and, when it went too far, pulling it forward with the rope in front. Once it was lined up, it was a pain in the arse to get it up through the hole - I couldn't reach it!! A lot of grunting and swearing later (and that trick with the pliers) and it's in!!

At first, I was just going to end it at the hole I cut near the tranny nose, but then when pulling it through, I realized it would be far better to run it all the way to the engine compartment! I'll have two wires that will have to be out of their way for just a bit - the starter trigger (going to a relay) and the power line for the dashboard. I think I'll run a heavy heavy wire from the battery to the starter to a post in the engine compartment, then run the dash, alternator and an extra heavy line for the front of the car (air horn and headlights).

To get that pull line in, I took a piece of solid core wire and pushed it through the front hole until it came out the rear (I'd tried stranded wire, but it kept catching). Then I tied some kite string (small nylon, pretty strong!) to the end of the wire, and easily pulled the string through. Now, when I add wires I'll just tie them to the string and slip them into the conduit. I'll have to figure a way to hide the string as I'll always keep a length in there if I ever want to add wires in the future. I tucked the end of the wires that need to go through there, and there's plenty of room.

I like it! 8)

Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:33 pm

That looks like 3/4" Carlon, is that going to be large enough? Might be worth running one more now that you are good at it?

If you decide to run your brake lines, I am not sure that they need to go into the Carlon, I think that steel braided will wear fine inside the tunnel. Are you going to put in a whole new fuse terminal? I say that because if you are running all new wires, you need to come on over to the dark side and put a real fuse terminal that takes blade style fuses. On that Manx gallery you found, while I am not 100% sure this is the way to go, but it does make for some good ideas, especially that fuse box, think I would work that battery into the engine bay if it was me. I was going to put my fuse box under the front hood, but after seeing this, I may move it to the inside.

Since mine looks like this, I do not think I will have the same heart burn that you did.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:50 pm

Yes, it's 3/4", and yes, I believe that all the wires I'm running through it will fit. If you look at the stock loom it looks thick, but when you cut into it you find that there's not so many wires in there. I think I could even thread the stock loom (without the jacket) through 1/2" - it'd be tight though.

After all that, I'm not going to run the brake lines through the tunnel. Too much work for even a single hole.

I agree, I think you wont have the same heartburn I did, but it's still going to be tough to get that conduit into position.

Nice looking pan!

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:44 pm

Ian - Was thinking that if you were running the stock break master cylinder, that you could bring your brake line out where your throttle cable comes out. I am going with the same CNC hanging pedals that are in that picture I put up, and I am coming out of the tunnel in about the same place as they did in that picture of that Manx for break lines & electrical & fuel. I am going to cut about a 2"x2" hole there or a hole on each side to give myself enough room to work. Since that part is completely unseen, I have a little more room to play.

I was also thinking of coming out the back where you did, but since I have the body lift, I can put a coupling there to secure the conduit to keep it all tight.

I may change my mind once I get into the job, but so far that is my plan.

Whats your thoughts on fuse terminal? I took out every single wire that there was on mine, so I was committed to running new stuff from the beginning. I can not stand spliced and messy looking wires. I do not know the name of the stuff, and I will try to find it for you, but we use a cable all the time, that you can order that will have as many lines included in one tight bundle. We call it speed wrap cable, that is not the official name of it, but we have used it in 12 & 24 pair configurations, so that would be 24 or 48 wires, all individually color coded and wrapped in a plastic jacket. You can get the stuff in any gauge, or combination of gauges, look around on line and see if you can find some, we get ours from a supply house out of Dallas.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:10 pm

That's a good idea for the brake run - I'll look closely at it tomorrow.

The conduit is pretty tight in the tunnel. I'll probably throw some kind of bracket around it in the rear of the tunnel to hold it in, but it's there. I'm prepping the engine compartment to paint, so I wont secure the conduit yet, but when I do it won't move at all. If it does, it'll probably get cut up, so I want to avoid that.

I will not splice wires! If I find a wire won't make it all the way to the rear or if it's in bad shape, I'll replace it. I've already broken the sheathing on one of the turn signal wires, so I may replace it. With the conduit, this'll be easy to do.

I've been thinking of replacing the fuse box with a blade style box.
http://www.delcity.net/delcity/servlet/catalog?parentid=176&page=1
but not going with the full system-in-a-box.

Looks like this is the type of kit he's using on the Manx:
http://www.americanautowire.com/products/Highway_series.cfm

I'd be worried about the 12 & 24 pair cables. Those are solid core and a tiny guage - I assume you're talking about Cat5 and phone line type cable. They'll not carry much current and are prone to break in a high vibration enviornment. Bundled speaker wire seems like the closest to meeting the need, but that stuff tends to be more expensive and still doesn't provide the flexibility that I want.

I've settled on running individual wires with printed labels on both ends. I'll run the labels through a lazer printer, then cover it with clear heat shrink tubing. That should keep it neat, easy to use and allow it to stand up to some abuse.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:56 pm

Ian, I will try to find the wire for you. It is for power, not solid like Cat5, LOL. We use it to power up a lot of different stuff, directly off breakers, its perfect for this application. Have used it a lot inside DC power plants & rectifier set ups. We also us it a lot for control wires, but the wire is always stranded not solid.

The label is exactly how we do it, but we use one of those Brother label machines, and then go with the clear heat shrink. Like the way you are thinking, clean & tight.

I think I like that Delcity box better, you could always use two or three if you needed more space.