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richtrek Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:03 am

I am feeling guilty at how dirty my 74 Thing seems compared to my modern vehicles... I am talking about the exhaust.

It may seem like a no brainer since I am in California, and my
Thing is too old to be smog checked, that I should feel lucky... But I have that whole environmental, responsible citizen "thing" going on in my household.

Is there anything I could do to make the 'ole 1600 engine spew less pollution into the air?

I am hoping it, at least, belches out less than a Hummer.


:cry:

Towel Rail Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:45 am

Depends on how much you care. A simple tune-up might help a little, but given the $$$ and motivation, you could add EGR, catalytic converter, fuel injection, etc.

Or you could buy a bike. :lol:

xeno Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:28 am

Yea, I think the best bang for the buck (and trouble) would be to unbolt the muffler & replace it with a cat that would be a direct bolt on replacement. Or if your really in to it. Unbolt the 1.6l gasser and bolt on a 25hp motor and some batteries and never worry about a polluting thing ever again.


X

Ian Epperson Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:43 am

I understand that you could also convert the engine to natural gas without tearing it apart. I don't think you need to change the compression or valves. Burns much cleaner, but the engine will tend to run hotter as the current liquid gas cools as it vaporizes.

No matter how much they scrub the emissions, a Hummer uses 3x the gas and moves a lot more mass - it's got to generate 3x the exhaust - even if that exhaust is twice as clean as yours, it's still polluting more. Also, when gas burns fully it turns into mostly CO2 - you can't avoid that - the more gas burned the more CO2, and CO2 is a bigtime greenhouse gas.

One thing you can do is to buy a Terrapass which purchases carbon credits to offset pollutants from individuals. If you're getting 25 MPG and run 10k miles/year (about average) they estimate that you're putting out 7,826 lbs CO2 per year.

Yes it's gimmicky, but it's an action that you can take to help.

KTPhil Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:27 am

Tuning it gives the most bang for the buck. Driving gently is next. Hardware mods cost a lot and return proportionately less, but for the ultimate in clean, go for a closed loop EFI with cat.

richtrek Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:00 am

Thanks for the suggestions!

I looked into fuel injection and I have not been able to find an after market fuel injection that was not incredibly expensive. I have thought about a catalytic converter... would that cut down on the gas mileage?

I like the idea of paying the carbon credits. It is an odd way of doing things but I would know I was doing something to answer a problem vs. simply causing a problem.

Money is an object in all this so an engine conversion is not in the plans... yet.

If anyone knows where I could get fuel injection for the 1600 that is not cost prohibitive let me know. Also, the same for a catalytic converter.

I am considering putting a smaller "pict" carburator in it to improve mileage... would that help cut down on emissions?

It is tuned up.

Thanks guys!

Richard

richtrek Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:01 am

Thanks for the suggestions!

I looked into fuel injection and I have not been able to find an after market fuel injection that was not incredibly expensive. I have thought about a catalytic converter... would that cut down on the gas mileage?

I like the idea of paying the carbon credits. It is an odd way of doing things but I would know I was doing something to answer a problem vs. simply causing a problem.

Money is an object in all this so an engine conversion is not in the plans... yet.

If anyone knows where I could get fuel injection for the 1600 that is not cost prohibitive let me know. Also, the same for a catalytic converter.

I am considering putting a smaller "pict" carburator in it to improve mileage... would that help cut down on emissions?

It is tuned up.

Thanks guys!

Richard

Ian Epperson Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:27 pm

EFI is cool and not cheap.

In order to put in an EFI system, you need a 120PSI fuel supply and return to the tank. That means 2 new fuel lines run. Also, older injection systems are prone to leaking - in order to prevent a new one from doing so you shouldn't use cheap rubber lines and hose clamps. Good fittings can quickly get expensive.

The biggest cost is in the injectors. Any EFI system will need 5 of them - 1 for each cylander and 1 for the "start". Basically, these shoot fuel direclty into the intake valve when it opens - so it's a high pressure valve that can open and close several times a second for a specific duration. Not easy and therefore not cheap.

The next biggest cost is the controller to orchestrate all of it.

You could also go with mechanical fuel injection which trades the cost of a controller with a complex air metering system. Those are stock on some VW's, but are more complex in the air routing and metering.

Once it's all installed, tuning it correctly can be very challenging.

So, basically, it's a great system, but not for the feint of heart. It will use fuel more efficiently.

amishman Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:01 pm

How about burning alcohol? VW's can be tweeked to run straight alcohol and I believe burns cleaner than gas like Ethanol does.

tj

oorwullie Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:12 pm

it's a curious thing that for emission control inspection in this country there is a MINIMUM level of C02 specified. so if i make my old VW's run cleaner it will not pass................... :roll:

joemama Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:21 pm

I would think an electronic ignition would help burn cleaner, also maintain in tune, and at around 65.00, pretty affordable.

richtrek Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:42 pm

Thanks for the suggestions!

I looked into fuel injection and I have not been able to find an after market fuel injection that was not incredibly expensive. I have thought about a catalytic converter... would that cut down on the gas mileage?

I like the idea of paying the carbon credits. It is an odd way of doing things but I would know I was doing something to answer a problem vs. simply causing a problem.

Money is an object in all this so an engine conversion is not in the plans... yet.

If anyone knows where I could get fuel injection for the 1600 that is not cost prohibitive let me know. Also, the same for a catalytic converter.

I am considering putting a smaller "pict" carburator in it to improve mileage... would that help cut down on emissions?

It is tuned up.

Thanks guys!

Richard

Ian Epperson Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:33 pm

oorwullie wrote: it's a curious thing that for emission control inspection in this country there is a MINIMUM level of C02 specified.

Isn't that a minimum percent of CO2? If it burned perfectly, the only thing coming out of the tailpipe would be CO2: 100% - nearly everything else makes smog.

The only way to not create CO2 is to not burn hydrocarbons. Ya know, HC (gas) + two 02 (air) = *Boom* + CO2 + H20. But gas isn't as simple as HC, there's other stuff in there as well which eventually turns into smog. Also, sometimes the *Boom* happens so fast that not all the molecules can alighn and there's a CO (carbon monoxide) leftover - another toxic problem.

If you could figure out how to get, store and deliver pure hydrogen, then you get H + 02 = *Boom* + H2O. Nice and clean, but there are a lot of technical issues with that.

HOTBAJA Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:41 pm

Here is my idea, sell me your car, go to honda and buy a Hybird you me and the trees will all be happy :D There is a guy(BAJA5) on here in the off road section that has fuel injection on his baja look him up see where he got his. Anything you do is going too cost lots of dinero. smaller carbs cat converters ect only hurt performance. A well maintained and tuned car is always your best bet

uberautowerks Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:39 pm

Hybrids are stupid!!!! They still run on gas and my wife's xB gets as good a mileage that the neighbors Pious! An no massively nasty heavy metal filled batteries!

Anyway, put a cat on it. They are cheap enough and won't really effect power or economy. However the smaller carb may not really help. It will slow you down and help burn less gas, but your right foot can do the same thing! Is you can't keep your foot out of it, make a restrictor plate. Work's for NASCAR!!!

mstatedog Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:52 pm

convert it to electric and that way your local powerplant is spewing noxious gases into the atmosphere and we can all feel good about ourselves.....or....nevermind....everything has a price.

dog

Thingggg Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:58 am

You can do an efi megasquirt build it yourself for not to much cash. Also a guy in mexico is importing mexi-beetle efi parts like manifold TB gernerator stand and the like you can use with the MS unit. You can probably do it for $700+ dollars or so. Look in the shoptalk forms under EFI. Very far from bolt on and go however. Megasquirt is very popular on aircooled VWs.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=23
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=106354
http://www.megasquirt.info/

Quote: spewing noxious gases into the atmosphere
We keep our waste in swimming pools. "Love them midwest nukes."

Ian Epperson Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:08 am

mstatedog wrote: convert it to electric and that way your local powerplant is spewing noxious gases into the atmosphere and we can all feel good about ourselves.....or....nevermind....everything has a price.

The nice thing about electric is that your local power plant can upgrade to run off the tides, or wind, or solar, or nuclear, or geothermal, or whatever. It's tough to do any of that with a car ;)

For me, I plan on keeping my engine tuned up and periodically buying a Terrapass. When the day comes that the batteries get better I'll go electric. If that's the same day that hydrogen is on most every corner and hydrogen fuel cells are less than $250k (maybe closer to $5k) then I'll likely upgrade to a fuel cell too.

Woreign Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:29 am

I like the idea of "Air Powered" vehicles: http://www.theaircar.com/

Unfortunately, with the oil companies controlling our county, it will be a long time before we see this technology in the States...

richtrek Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:35 am

I had not expected such a lively debate on the clean issue.

I am now thinking along the lines of "Epperson" and prepare to change as the technology allows. The Thing is too fun of a car get rid of when tech starts to change for the good.

Also, I will voluntarily pay as a polluter.

I do wish there was an easy fuel injection answer, however, it looks like all those options are too pricey, or well past my level of mechanical expertise.

Thanks again, guys.

Richard



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