TheSamba.com :: View topic - Holzbrenner - Tell me about these and what it might be worth

Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:41 am

A couple days ago my parents bought a house as an investment property, they'll likely rent it out because its in pretty good shape. After a couple years they'll sell the house and profit or whatever. I dunno, they started doing this after I came to college. So far its worked out well.

Anyway when they went to sign all of the paper work on this home, one of the inclusions was an "antique Volkswagen." My parents know I like VWs and such, but they hadn't see a VW in the walkthrough. Its in the ATTIC. Apparently covered by some tarps and with some old boxes of crap sitting around it. I guess the home inspector didn't mention it when he was up there, or didn't realize it was a car. He came back though to check it out (and to make sure it wasn't going to fall through the ceiling - its a big attic obviously with a full floor.

He says the car almost certainly had to have been put in there when the home was built (which was 1951). The only way up there is a drop-down staircase in the hall. The house is built on the side of a hill -3 stories above ground in the back and two + basement in the front.

I had my dad go up there and check it out (the house is many hours away from me or I would be there). There's a bulge in the hood with a hatch on the top. That blew my mind and I thought somebody had really bubba'd the car or something. Then I asked my friend and he point me to this picture:

Link

Which my dad confirmed seems to be similar if not the same (there's only one lightbulb up there, and my dad is not known for thoroughness when it comes to anything automotive).

I did some research and all I can find is it might be what is called a Holzbrenner. Which used either wood pyrolysis or wood/coal for STEAM (not the same at all and I can't get a straight answer). They were made during the war because of gasoline shortages.

The tires are now flat, obviously but from my dad's obvious short and non-expert determination the car "isn't rusty".

I need to have him look at some more things. Were these ever made as some kind of aftermarket kit. Its possible its just an early Beetle with the kit added on, I guess. I don't even know how to tell my dad to figure out if this thing is from the war years or post-war (although considering when the house was built I find it unlikely someone would buy a new Bug, put a kit on it if it existed, and then build it into their attic. If it was something they brought home from Europe or something I could maybe see that, but honestly either way putting a car in an attic seems nuts!)

I really don't have any other information about this, but if you guys could help me out that would be great. I have a hunch this car may be worth a lot of money, but at the same time it would cost a LOT of money and effort to even get it out of the house (pull the roof off? I don't know). I've been looking at info for this thing for a couple weeks (and all of my VW -searching has actually led me to look for another project for my own, which is why I came back to the Samba even though I'm currently VW-less).

The general vibe I get from my parents is that they don't want to be bothered with anything to do with this, but I guess money talks. They're known to pass up on money if its too much hassle, though - which could suck in this situation.

FYI: Until they make a choice about what they are going to do, I'm not going to give out their contact info or even where the house is located. A couple years ago I posted about a farmer I knew with probably a dozen old VWs sitting in a field and I got dozens of e-mails from people all around trying to get in on finding out where they were. Please don't bother asking me. If its coming out of the attic, it means its probably more expensive than somebody on here can afford. I'm mostly just looking for info.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:02 am

Assuming this is for real, you need to spend a few minutes googling Holzgas, Holzgasvergaser, and Imbert (the inventor).

If it is like the car in the photo it is a Holzgas (wood gas) car. Not all that rare at the time, but few have survived. At one time 90% of the cars in Norway were converted to wood gas, and a large number of German cars (and especially farm equipment) too.

Basically, you load the cooker with wood chips (or charcoal, or even coal), light it on fire, deprive the fire of oxygen so the combustion is incomplete, and the incomplete combustion creates a gas which can be burned by the engine.

There were a bunch of different systems. Some were pretty elegant, and some, not so much:

They were rather dangerous, so you needed a special driver's license to operate one:

It works although it is a pain to operate and it destroys the engine in record time. It was a desperation measure Germany used during the war when they couldn't get oil.

As far as value, I've watched a couple very nice WWII vintage units sell on German ebay over the last few months, and the nicest only brought about $500. That one was cherry since it was being sold by a tech school where it was used for teaching purposes.

Of course if this were to be an original VW Holzgas Car then all bets are off. An original car would have been a Type 230.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:18 am

Since I seem to be the resident Samba Holzgas nerd, let me post some cool Kubel pics. Since everything is out in the open on the kubel it's easier to see all the parts:

Basically it's a pressure cooker. The wood burns then goes through a cooler and a filter and gets piped back to the engine where's there's a special adapter for the carb. Oh, and you need a fan to keep the combustion going,

My father in law in Germany is supposed to be scouting the ads for a nice unit for sale, but he operated one during the war and he thinks I'm completely insane. The first time I talked to him about these he shook his head and he said "when the holzgas cars appeared that's when we all realized we had lost the war."

They set up special "Holzgas Fueling Stations" in Germany where they sold pre-cut wood chips (matchstick sized), and they told drivers on the Autobahn to take every exit and then get back on since the exits back then were paved with cobblestones and the vibration of the cobblestones would stir the ashes and keep the fire burning.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:21 am

Admin note:
Please stay on topic. If you want to contact the original poster about the vehicle possibly being for sale, contact him privately.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:28 am

michael schramm wrote: Chronogoof89 wrote:
Please don't bother asking me. If its coming out of the attic, it means its probably more expensive than somebody on here can afford. I'm mostly just looking for info.

What! :lol:

Not to get off topic, but it was built into the top floor of a house thats in a fairly remote location/neighborhood and surrounded by trees, etc. A large area of roof/beam would have to come out and it'd have to take the car out by crane. If it were mine in my house I'd be willing to go through that, but understand that my parents are not VW collectors or car people at all and they seriously wouldn't want to deal with this... at all...

To be true I didn't really mean it as "nobody could afford the price" but more like "the price they'd require to dismantle a good part of an expensive house and crane-lift out an old ass car would be more than somebody would likely want to pay for this."

Then Jesse James (apparently :roll:... PS: if you can build all kinds of sick nasty bikes and cars Jesse, you can learn to use the Shift and CAPSLOCK keys correctly) showed up, so maybe I was wrong. Like I said I have no idea as far as pricing or the cost involved with removing this. I was mostly just looking for information. If it came time to sell it and the price would be worth it, I suspect my parents would throw it up for auction and not just sell it to some dude on the 'net who called "dibbs". Sorry to get more off-topic but I wanted to clear that up.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:30 am

Chronogoof89 wrote: michael schramm wrote: Chronogoof89 wrote:
Please don't bother asking me. If its coming out of the attic, it means its probably more expensive than somebody on here can afford. I'm mostly just looking for info.

What! :lol:

Not to get off topic, but it was built into the top floor of a house thats in a fairly remote location/neighborhood and surrounded by trees, etc. A large area of roof/beam would have to come out and it'd have to take the car out by crane. If it were mine in my house I'd be willing to go through that, but understand that my parents are not VW collectors or car people at all and they seriously wouldn't want to deal with this... at all...

Understood, but we're still gonna need some pictures. Seriously, I need pictures, even if no one else does.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:32 am

I say, get some pictures and post them :wink: Well your at it look in the basement and barn :shock:

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:34 am

I will have my dad take some pictures when I talk to him tonight. I'm not sure when the next time he'll be at the house is, but it should be pretty soon.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:48 am

A couple guys with tools could dismantle the car and take it out piece by piece over the weekend. 8)
The attic access would need to be opened up a bit to get the pan and main shell out......5k in construction..maybe. I dont know....just offering solutions.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:49 am

Chronogoof89 wrote: I had my dad go up there and check it out (the house is many hours away from me or I would be there). There's a bulge in the hood with a hatch on the top. That blew my mind and I thought somebody had really bubba'd the car or something. There were some very ugly large front hoods made for the Beetle, and if you haven't checked it out yourself, odds are good it's just been "bubba'd."

Logically one would have to ask, how would a holzbrenner end up in the U.S.? They were difficult to use, and produced aa grand total of about 12hp. I'd say the odds of this car being one are somewhere between slim and none.

As to the question of price, if the story checks out, this is one of those name-your-own price types of deals. At a minimum you could ask your dad if it's a split window. That would clear up plenty of confusion right there, and make it an attractive car to retrieve, whether it's a woodburner or not.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:01 am

Chronogoof89 wrote: it means its probably more expensive than somebody on here can afford.

Pretty presumptuous.... this is why Im calling Bulshit... Lets see pics.

There were VERY few woodburners built.. and most were experimental (Type 230, 231, 239, 240) carrying Versuchswagen plates (experimental car). Its not impossible... but highly unlikely... sorry Im just a skeptic.... and why hire a crane....to place a car.. in an attic.. yes Ive heard wierder stories.. but this one aint working out. I will GLADLY eat crow when I see pictures of a VW.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:03 am

Sure, the odds are 100,000 to 1 it's a super beetle with a fiberglass hood. It could also be some abortion right out of the Whole Earth Catalog circa 1972 with some hippy's homemade holzgas cooker, especially if it's in Colorado. They were big for a couple years back in those days.

But I'll play along. Maybe some Homie in Germany see this and shoots me a PM about that old Imbert unit he has sitting in his garage. And, maybe, just maybe, this is that one time in 10,000-- not like we have anything else to do that's more important to do. :D

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:19 am

coad wrote: Sure, the odds are 100,000 to 1 it's a super beetle with a fiberglass hood. It could also be some abortion right out of the Whole Earth Catalog circa 1972 with some hippy's homemade holzgas cooker, especially if it's in Colorado. They were big for a couple years back in those days.

But I'll play along. Maybe some Homie in Germany see this and shoots me a PM about that old Imbert unit he has sitting in his garage. And, maybe, just maybe, this is that one time in 10,000-- not like we have anything else to do that's more important to do. :D

Yeah, we all cry BS, but not one of us would pass up a chance to follow up on a lead if given the chance, right????

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:46 pm

vwtoyguy wrote: Quote: I'd say the odds of this car being one are somewhere between slim and none.

Well its sure to be true now! :wink:

Ain't that the truth!

Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:05 pm

Photos of course will tell the story. You just gotta get some somehow.

And Jesse types like that cuz he's doing the web stuff through a Blackberry...a busy guy with no time for punctuation.

If it is a real WW2 wood burner Beetle...he would have the coin and the motivation to get it out of there and fix the house. Heck I would even look seriously into it...Ive got some home equity I could play with.

But all of it is just a dream until we all see the photos...

I take that back...until "I" see the photos first... :D

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:10 pm

I got to tell ya, guys..If there was something that mysterious
sitting at Mom & Pop's new place, I'd be in my truck pretty
quick just to see what this might up being.

As far as the pic with the yellow front end, it almost looks like
the car is saying 'Yikes" if you kinda look at the headlights
and the black grille thingy and put it together... :lol:

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:23 pm

bgs wrote: I got to tell ya, guys..If there was something that mysterious
sitting at Mom & Pop's new place, I'd be in my truck pretty
quick just to see what this might up being.

Its in Illinois, I'm in Colorado. Not impossible for me to go there, but again - I don't see an easy way to remove it. Its not really my mom + pop's place either. They own a whole crapload of various houses, they don't even live in the same state as this one (which is why you'd have to wait for pictures).

But anyway, here's an update - its obviously not original because its an oval window. Yes I had already asked my dad but I guess he misunderstood. So, sorry to disappoint you. It is definitely some type of wood-burning setup though, but upon further serious questioning of my dad (plus its an oval) its obviously some kind of kit.

Again I guess it was weird to say nobody here could afford it, but to be fair I didn't understand that the car might be worth so extremely much (I figured it would be maybe, 40-50 grand as something thats "rare") I don't think my parents would tear up an investment property for that.

Apparently the attic used to have one of those big barndoor type dealies and it could have been driven/winched up a ramp from the outside. Its been bricked in though, now. The house is on the side of a hill, so if you had a long enough ramp the incline to the top floor would not be that bad I guess. I've never seen the house though so I don't know.

So, sorry to rile everybody up. Thought my 'rents had found something cool and I still think they did (any car in an attic is pretty weird and cool by me) but its obviously not some kind of war-era Nazi-mobile that everyone had hoped. Sorry. I've reminded my dad to take pictures next time he goes, I may plop one in this thread just so you guys can have a look (despite that fact that it isn't a split).

The Blackberry explanation isn't really good enough for Jesse James, sorry. Even my shitty phone has predictive text and auto-caps. This isn't 1998 or something.

Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:29 pm

Cant your parents email pics to you?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:31 pm

Regardless of what it is, I think it will be interested to see photos of this kit.

I admit to not knowing much about Illinois property values but $40K-$50K seems like a good return on an investment. :)

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:58 pm

If it is something really valuable I just see law suits down the road as to who it really belongs to. As a motor vehicle. it has it's own title which means it can't convey with the contents of the house without it's title being transferred.

You need to have Dad check it over to see if it is a split window and if the front hood is metal or fiberglass.

Then dad needs to check the house to see how the wall opens to get it out. If the house was built arount it, it was probably stolen and hiden away so someone wouldn't go to jail. But if it really does exsist, I would suspect that the attic opens up somehow to get it out.

My guess is it's all BS. You need to leave school and go home and take photos.

If it is real, forget about that education! Sell the car and invest the money. It would be a better investment then college.