TheSamba.com :: View topic - -BUILDING the EFI Turbo- ~head Q's~

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:16 pm

miniman82 wrote: A 110 cam will be fine. You said you wanted fast spoolup, that's why I recommended the GT series turbo. If you can't afford one/can't find one, a T-3 will work, but you'll have a little more lag than with the GT series. An MSD boost retard box (6462 or equiv) will benefit you as well, no matter what dizzy you end up with.

i wont have to split the case? thats alot of work i dont have to do.
COMP ratio will be okay? even less work to do!

so lets say i may have a garret T-3 lined up:

have all the exhaust merge under the apron, into one (what size?) tube.
that tube rises to the turbo. the exhaust pipe exits the turbo, and goes below the apron to the muffler (or straight pipe)
carb on the left side of the turbo. use a TURBO t-pipe with stock DP end castings. i have those castings already.

set psi to something low... like 5psi.

now the garret t-3... is that internal boost controlled or do you need the wastegate? the blow off valve is for aethetics...... keep the hon-duhs at bay.

thanks! :twisted:

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:00 pm

and can you still run heater boxes? with 5lbs of boost that is.

Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:52 pm

dog_jr911 wrote: miniman82 wrote: A 110 cam will be fine. You said you wanted fast spoolup, that's why I recommended the GT series turbo. If you can't afford one/can't find one, a T-3 will work, but you'll have a little more lag than with the GT series. An MSD boost retard box (6462 or equiv) will benefit you as well, no matter what dizzy you end up with.

i wont have to split the case? thats alot of work i dont have to do.
COMP ratio will be okay? even less work to do!

so lets say i may have a garret T-3 lined up:

have all the exhaust merge under the apron, into one (what size?) tube.
that tube rises to the turbo. the exhaust pipe exits the turbo, and goes below the apron to the muffler (or straight pipe)
carb on the left side of the turbo. use a TURBO t-pipe with stock DP end castings. i have those castings already.

set psi to something low... like 5psi.

now the garret t-3... is that internal boost controlled or do you need the wastegate? the blow off valve is for aethetics...... keep the hon-duhs at bay.

thanks! :twisted:

I was under the impression you were going to run the CB hideaway header, are you building your own?
I like 8:1 or lower for turbo engines, depending on how much you want to push. You ratio should be fine with the low amount of boost you intend to run.
T-3 turbos can be either internally or externally wastegated, it depends on what exhaust housing you have. 99 percent of the ones I see are internal.
I'm confused, you said you want blow through carb earlier, but now you're talking about t-sections???

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:03 am

yah a single blow thru would be great. then i can keep everything under the apron and spare myself all that heat!

so with the intake bieng under the car... can you run a pipe into the engine compartment with a filter so that its not sucking any water in?

im still changing things around. deffinately want the turbo out of the bay....

so lets go with the blow-thru. :D

that way, i can run a muffler! like the dynamax i have! :twisted:

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:15 am

well checked out CB again..

and its backwards to what i was thinking, so that would mean no exhaust could be used. i donk know if there is room to flip the turbo around and see if it will have room for the intake on the left side. but it doesnt matter!

CB's sedan header it is!

now i need a single carb i can use to blow-thru. single webber should be good right? or something else? :?:

and this is for dual blow-thru carb setup right? i dont need this? or can i use it for the metal?
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=293

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:42 am

dog_jr911 wrote: well checked out CB again..

and its backwards to what i was thinking, so that would mean no exhaust could be used. i donk know if there is room to flip the turbo around and see if it will have room for the intake on the left side. but it doesnt matter!

CB's sedan header it is!

now i need a single carb i can use to blow-thru. single webber should be good right? or something else? :?:

From what I gather dells work great for blow through setups. I'm currently looking at doing a dual 40's on my 1915. I'd say a single 45 Dell would work great, plus all the turbo updating E-Tubes and gaskets are on CB.

Shoptalkforums has an FI section, I found it to be a great resource. There are a lot of guys that run single breakthroughs with no issues.

http://shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=3

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:06 am

dog_jr911 wrote: well checked out CB again..

and its backwards to what i was thinking, so that would mean no exhaust could be used. i donk know if there is room to flip the turbo around and see if it will have room for the intake on the left side. but it doesnt matter!

CB's sedan header it is!

now i need a single carb i can use to blow-thru. single webber should be good right? or something else? :?:

and this is for dual blow-thru carb setup right? i dont need this? or can i use it for the metal?
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=293

Have you looked into Megasquirt at all? It's quite cost effective, and much more accurate than any carb. Read THIS from beginning to end, might give you some ideas on where to take your project.

You don't need that t-section. If you decide to go single blow through, you'll have to fab your own pipe to go from the turbo to the pressure hat (unless of course, someone makes that part).

Also, have you thought of intercooling? :twisted: Since you plan to run blow through, you can do it....small air to water coolers are available that could be made to fit under the deck with some clever charge pipe routing...

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:23 pm

im going out for the nite... but thanks for all the good links. will check them out later.

heres an idea: turbo-prepping my dual kadrons. can kardrons run on boost? would it be cheaper than getting a dell and setting it up? would i have more power with 2 smaller carbs than one big one?

i could always up the throttle shafts from AJ.

Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:44 pm

ive been checking out the links. all good information.

i dont think new dual carbs are in my budget, sadly.

so it would have to be a sinlge blow-thru or prepping my kads for a DUAL blow thru.

anyone done this before?

any fabrication needed for a single carb will be easy for me to do.

Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:54 pm

alright... im looking for a dell single dell to use. DRLA is the type im looking for correct? DHLA is for side draft, so i cannot use it?

and does it matter if its 36 40 or 45? can the throttle bodies or vents be changed to make it bigger? if you have a 40 or 45 for sale.. PM ME :twisted:

Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:55 pm

did more research...

i know i have to change the timing, and get an electric fuel pump.

easy questions

do i need a turbo-fuel regulator?

i can get my kadrons turbo-prepped and all setup for $200 from AJ simms.. d

... would dual kads be better than a sinlge dell OR webber? for blow- thru.

after the carbs are chosen its just a matter of ordering everything and putting things together. just trying to decide on what carb would be easiest to use and setup.

anything else i should know about turbos? theres nothing else thats needed? anything will help. links, leads, or advice very appreciated!

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:16 am

dog_jr911 wrote: do i need a turbo-fuel regulator?

Blow through=yes
Draw through=no

dog_jr911 wrote: ... would dual kads be better than a sinlge dell OR webber? for blow- thru.

Get EFI, and never look back.

dog_jr911 wrote: after the carbs are chosen its just a matter of ordering everything and putting things together. just trying to decide on what carb would be easiest to use and setup.

See previous comment.
Dell is probably the easiest to set up for blow through.

dog_jr911 wrote: anything else i should know about turbos? theres nothing else thats needed? anything will help. links, leads, or advice very appreciated!

If you've never done this before, be aware of a few things:
1. if you don't have a wideband, get or rent one. Without it, there is no definite way to know how rich or lean you really are; it'd be an educated guess at best.
2. couple ways you can handle timing. You could do it the stone-age half-assed way and lock the dizzy, and have the worst of both worlds; or you could do the right thing, and use an SVDA with a boost retard box (MSD 6BTM). You could also go programmable distributorless ignition, but since you're going the old school route with carbs, I'm guessing you'll be using a dizzy.
3. resist the urge to dive into full boost runs, work your way up to your goal, making notes and doing adjustments along the way.
4. if you hear pinging, GET OFF THE GAS!!!
5. Have fun, and don't give up! It's fun along the way, and it only gets better once you're done! :D

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:22 am

miniman82 wrote: You said you wanted fast spoolup, that's why I recommended the GT series turbo. .

You really aren't supposed to run a dual BB turbo without water cooling the center section. You will end up cooking the bearing on the turbine side in a short time. A single BB will be fine as the ball bearing is on the comp side(journal on the hot side), but you will kill a dual BB turbo on one of these motors, or any motor if you don't have a way to water cool the center section.

I had one of the first dual BB turbos that Innovative ever built on my old Golf, and I didn't run water to it. Within a week, it was pretty loud, sent it back, got a slap on the wrist and have been running water to every dual BB turbo I have ever used after that, even our track only car with a GT4202.

BTW, I am building a fuel injected(we have an old Haltech lying around) 1915 for my bug, probably run a 14B mitsu turbo, maybe a small 16G. cheap, no worries about wet center sections and should spool plenty good on a 1915. Might even consider a Ko3S off of a 1.8t. They make around 210 wheel at 15 pounds on the 20V and spool up instantly. If you are looking for a fat power band with around 165ish hp, might be a good choice. Shold be able to find one for 150 bucks or less.

Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:05 pm

dubsquared wrote: miniman82 wrote: You said you wanted fast spoolup, that's why I recommended the GT series turbo. .

You really aren't supposed to run a dual BB turbo without water cooling the center section. You will end up cooking the bearing on the turbine side in a short time. A single BB will be fine as the ball bearing is on the comp side(journal on the hot side), but you will kill a dual BB turbo on one of these motors, or any motor if you don't have a way to water cool the center section.

Ooops! You're right, I forgot about that! :oops:
What series turbo is the single ball bearing?
dubsquared wrote: BTW, I am building a fuel injected(we have an old Haltech lying around) 1915 for my bug, probably run a 14B mitsu turbo, maybe a small 16G. cheap, no worries about wet center sections and should spool plenty good on a 1915. Might even consider a Ko3S off of a 1.8t. They make around 210 wheel at 15 pounds on the 20V and spool up instantly. If you are looking for a fat power band with around 165ish hp, might be a good choice. Shold be able to find one for 150 bucks or less.

I would not run a K03, the exhaust housing would be a big restriction on a 1915. If you want, I can get you a K24 or K26? That would be much better suited to a 1915 than the tiny K03. OEM's are notorious for using small turbos on their engines, so don't make guesses on what turbo to use just because VW used one. The 1.8T builds off idle boost, and I like to build boost around 2800 and hit max around 3500. Maybe you're different, but being on boost all the time would annoy me.

Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:41 pm

It's not the turbo I am going to run, but it has definitely crossed my mind. What you need to understand about the 1.8t, is that VW didn't set out to build a high performance engine, they wanted to build a small engine that made power like a big engine. So there are instances that something like a KO3 might suit a persons needs.

Garrett doesn't make any single BB turbos, but the difference between a single and non BB in terms of spool isn't that great, maybe 300-500 rpm, if that. A T3 with an E46 compressor would probably be a pretty good choice for one of these motors, but it still boils down to what the persons ultimate goal is with the car.

A KO3 would make a great driver without having to rev the motor, making a small motor feel like a big motor. Like I said, a Ko3 will still flow 210 hp worth of air at modest boost levels, on an 1.8 liter. Sure, these engines don't move air like a 20V, but at 8-10 psi, you would end up with a pretty fat powerband from almost idle to 5500 rpm, making around 170hp.

Or maybe it wouldn't work for anything... all speculation at this point :)

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:07 pm

i already have a turbo.

Garrett t3- 42ar x48ar

fuel injection.... i have access to a few injection systems off t4 engines. could i take it off that and use/modify it for my engine?
i could get that for CHEAP! :D

if that FI system wont work, can a use a DRLA or DHLA single dell? what MM will be best? :oops:

will the turbo-cam make that much of a difference that i would have to split the case? will that cause me to have to buy new lifters as well?

thanks!

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:24 pm

dog_jr911 wrote:

fuel injection.... i have access to a few injection systems off t4 engines. could i take it off that and use/modify it for my engine?
i could get that for CHEAP! :D

The problem with that is that you have no real control over the tune, like you would with Haltech, Megasquirt, CBs stuff or the like...

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:27 pm

cant i use all the equipment and just change the computer?

i keep thinking an EFI costs more than 1000.

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:46 pm

dog_jr911 wrote: cant i use all the equipment and just change the computer?

i keep thinking an EFI costs more than 1000.

You couldn't more wrong. If you have all the hardware already, MS is only $200 tops for the ECU. It's all wiring from there.
If you want a really cheap tunable EFI system, rob the parts from an EFI Beetle, and use MS to control it. People are pratically giving EFI Beetle stuff away. Don't use the Beetle temp sensors though, you get GM ones from the junkyard like I did for the price of.......

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:55 pm

so thats what ill end up doing!

hmmm am i making this too complicated? :lol:

how hard is it to wire up a EFI? any mods to the wiring harness?

this is in a 72 GHIA :twisted: