TheSamba.com :: View topic - Rebuilding wbxer questions -attn tencent

Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:04 pm

Hey Remraf,

The rod bolts should be torqued to 33 lb/ft. The cam and crank gears are marked just like a Type 1. Just line up the marks.

As far as main bearings go, on the split #2 bearing, make sure the bearing saddle is clean and then lay the bearing in carefully. Make sure the tang engages. I just use assembly lube. Some people like to add some 40 weight oil to the assembly lube, but I don't think it's necessary.

On the small bearing at the pulley end, remember that there is a small dowel pin that keeps the one piece bearing from turning. A lot of times this gets lost during disassembly.

Are you replacing all the head studs?

David

Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:29 pm

yes i got all new head studs. Didn't want to finish and torque the head down and have one break.

One problem, I lost one of the c-clips for the wrist pins. Do you know if they're same as type 1. If not I know a core 1.9 motor that I should be able to get them off.

Thanks

Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:55 pm

Wrist pin clips are 24mm. T-1 are 22mm. 24mm is the same as T-4. Rocky

Sat May 03, 2008 1:19 pm

Wow, looking at my last post just gave me an idea of how long it is taking me to finish this damn thing.

I've been real busy with work and had to take a while off from the motor.

I managed to get the heads on today. Everything went really smooth except for one little thing. I was torquing the heads per the bentley manual and noticed that the #1 bolt wouldn't stop turning. It is just as hard to turn as the other bolts but keeps on turning. All the other bolts tightened to spec. It did this on the same bolt on both sides of the motor.

I checked to make sure the stud wasn't to high. The studs are all brand new and it did not break. I had two other people look at it and they said they hadn't seen it happen before.

I'm a little worried. I don't want to tear the thing down again. I know the studs were installed correctly. I've taken my sweet ass time with this thing.

Ideas?

I made a point to notice how many turns of the wrench for the other bolts to get to wrench to click. These specific bolts get real tight around the same time but the torque wrench doesn't click.

Sat May 03, 2008 1:43 pm

remraf wrote:

I made a point to notice how many turns of the wrench for the other bolts to get to wrench to click. These specific bolts get real tight around the same time but the torque wrench doesn't click.
[-o< Quoteth the Bentley, chapter 15, page 23: CAUTION Thou shal not useth a click type torque wrench. Only shal thou use a beam or dial type wrench. Amen.

Sat May 03, 2008 1:45 pm

thou dust not have one. I read that and figured it didn't make a huge difference.

Could you explain why??

Thanks

Sat May 03, 2008 1:53 pm

The prophet does not say why, perhaps it has to do with what your experiencing. Try to get a beam on it to rule it out.Buy one if you must, you have enough time and $$ to justify the expence.

Sat May 03, 2008 2:01 pm

Yeah luckily all I would have to do at this point is remove the rockers so I'll do it. Hopefully I haven't gone past the point of no return.......

Thanks

Sat May 03, 2008 8:31 pm

Glad you're still with us Remraf. I was wondering how your engine rebuild had gone. It seems to me there are two things that could be going on. First of all, maybe the head nut is stripped and it just keeps turning on the threads of the stud. The other possibility of course is that the whole stud is turning in the now stripped hole at the case. I can't imagine that happening, though, since the threads are course and the stud base of fairly large cross section. In fact, I can't imagine the nuts getting stripped either unless your replacement studs are somehow substandard and have undersized threaded diameters. Where did your replacement studs come from? Were they OEM VW parts or of some aftermarket manufacture? Pull the nuts back off and take a look at the condition of the threads at the stud and inside the nut and let us know how that checks out.

David

Sat May 03, 2008 11:07 pm

D Clymer wrote: Glad you're still with us Remraf. I was wondering how your engine rebuild had gone. It seems to me there are two things that could be going on. First of all, maybe the head nut is stripped and it just keeps turning on the threads of the stud. The other possibility of course is that the whole stud is turning in the now stripped hole at the case. I can't imagine that happening, though, since the threads are course and the stud base of fairly large cross section. In fact, I can't imagine the nuts getting stripped either unless your replacement studs are somehow substandard and have undersized threaded diameters. Where did your replacement studs come from? Were they OEM VW parts or of some aftermarket manufacture? Pull the nuts back off and take a look at the condition of the threads at the stud and inside the nut and let us know how that checks out.

David
Remraf:
You did use the yellow VW sealer on the head nuts? it is supposed to keep them from leaking, but it also seems to lube them a little and make them torque down more uniformly.
I'm of the belief that uniform is what you want and it's more important than the exact torque.
And the idea of a bending beam torque wrench is totally BS. Maybe superstition form the Robert Bentley. It wouldn't be the first time I thought they were wrong. I'll not reach for mine, I like that click wrencc so well.
What I have done is take a lot more steps than 2 to bring them to torque. Something like 10, 20, 30, 32, 34, (what's the final torque? 37ft-lb? Then 36 and 37 as the last steps. As you draw it down in smaller bits the center will not end up having no torque , like they did after the 10 ft-lb turn.
I think your #1 nut is just not quite as tight. You did get good alignment ont he cylinder spigots and the pushrod tubes?
Al

Sun May 04, 2008 3:36 am

Regarding the click wrench vs beam type torque type wrench. My understanding is that the reason the beam type wrench is specified is because the studs are long and will twist a little as they are being torqued. The beam type torque wrench will keep the torque applied consistently as the nut is tightening and once it reaches the 37 lb ft it keep that torque applied until you let off the wrench. The click type wrench will click once it hits the set torque, but it is only momentarily. Wheather of not it make a real difference, I don't know, and I don't realy want to experiment on that so I use the beam type torque wrench.

I would also have a hard time believing that you stripped the nut or the stud. I would buy/borrow a beam type wrench and try that before taking things appart to investigate.

Sun May 04, 2008 6:46 am

Iagreewith PASCAL on the torque wrench (beam type) especially with the low # of torque. Still users of orig-head to block seals,guess some like to play the old 1 shell in the pistol game,live & learn i guess.

Sun May 04, 2008 7:32 pm

Beam wrench it is. I figure I'll start with easy. If for some reason it exhibits the same behavior off the heads come. I purchased all factory studs for replacements so I don't see why they might be a problem.

Yes I used the yellow goo and I did a gradual torquing of the bolts. The only thing I can think is maybe I didn't get good alignment but that seems like a long shot. The studs go a long way in making sure the alignment is on.

Hoping I can go and try a beam wrench on it before I go to work tomorrow. I'm ready to get this off my mind.

Thanks for the replies

Tue May 06, 2008 12:49 pm

I got hold of beam wrench and went out this morning to retorque. Nothing changed.

Here is what I'm seeing:
Torque bolt to specified torque.
Remove wrench and take a ratchet and try and turn a hair more. After slight turn the nut springs back the other direction a little bit.

I have looked at the threads on the nut and the stud and both appear ok. The stud is not breaking. It must be stretching. I looked back at the invoices for the parts and I'm pretty sure the middle/short studs are not oem.

I don't really know how to proceed at this point. I wonder if the motor when run will come up to operating temp and the heat will help set things and I could re-torque soon after. I think you probably know why I like this theory, no backtracking.

Sun May 11, 2008 7:25 am

Well, I figured out what was causing the problem with torquing the nuts. When I bought new studs for the case I got some from one place that had an incomplete set that were left over from a special order gone bad. I ordered the remaining ones from vancafe. The set from the special order were sold as oem factory replacements. After making some calls and learning a little about studs I learned that they are not. The problem is they are not heat treated and are stretching very easily. There is a mark on the studs that come from the manufacturer that vw still uses. It is kind of a star, you can see it on the studs from vancafe.

My lesson? Only replace the studs if you really need too. I was motivated mainly b/c the nice set of low mileage heads I got for free were off a low mileage rebuild with a broken stud. If you do buy studs don't try and save any money, buy from the dealer or vancafe.

I now have to pull the heads and remove the studs and re-apply new head gaskets.

Sun May 11, 2008 8:25 am

Wonder if that was why the low-miles one had a broken stud, too. You gotta wonder, too, how long that thing would have stretched before breaking.

You can go again on the channel seal and o-rings. They are rubber and silicone, and very resilient. You do want to remove the channel seal and rub off sealant flashing, but you can apply new sealant (do the water jacket end faces as well; you want sealant on both sides of the channel seal) and reuse the channel seal. They lose their resiliency over time and a lot of heat cycling, but if you just crushed it once it will spring right back. Same goes for the o-rings.

The problem is the combustion sealing rings are a crush-fit and therefore only good for one application. You will want to get new ones of those.

Seemes I've seen some other places that sell the seals individually, but for now here's one place you can get just the combustion seals:

http://www.gprparts.net/OEM/viewProducts.aspx?year...pID=800988

Sun May 11, 2008 8:49 am

I actually got a free set of new head gaskets and the sealing rings from a broken seal kit. So I'm going back with new ones in both areas.

Thanks for the heads up.

Sun May 11, 2008 7:34 pm

While I'm waiting on the new studs I started installing parts that wouldn't interfere with removing the heads.

First thing up was the oil breather tower. Aside from cleaning it (carb cleaner inside?) is it a good idea/necessary to replace it? I get the impression if it were clogged up it could cause some oil to look for other areas to exit.

Is necessary to add any type of sealant to add to the o-rings on the water pump?

Last question (for this post at least) is somewhat indirect. The van I have is somewhat of a basket-case. I've been proceeding with the idea that I will replace everything I would want to replace in the long term. This is quickly turning into every damn part on the van. I just priced out all new hoses and sh&*^t they add up. I was planning on running a new wire from the alternator to the starter while I had the motor out and maybe replacing the clutch slave while it is nice and accessible. I'm kind of running out of the funds to do so and realizing I'll never drive the van at this rate. Aside from the motor and clutch, what would you prioritize while your in there?

Thanx

Sun May 11, 2008 7:43 pm

Well really, if you need to prioritize, then whatever's inside the bell housing moves to the top of your list. Anything else can be accessed after the motor's installed. A clutch slave isn't hard to do with the motor in, although it would be kinda nice to do the clutch en suite, as it were.

Sun May 11, 2008 7:50 pm

woops forgot to mention I had flywheel resurfaced and already have new t.o. bearing, clutch disc and press plate on the way.

The van has 240k on it and the tranny is either been rebuilt already or is really close to becoming an expensive grenade. I just don't have the funds to swing the rebuild. There is my answer. Need to put off what I can till I get the tranny rebuilt. I don't plan on putting a lot of miles on it before I pull the tranny. Definitely the big drawback to the syncro. 1800 bucks for a good rebuild.