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Sat Mar 23, 2002 11:19 am

I sold my '64 split window camper over 20 years ago.

As much as I love split window busses, I had put enough miles on this one to know that I wanted some of the 'niceties' that the Baywindows have, and (a couple busses later) now drive a '71 Westy.

Some of the things from the '64 I miss, (the fresh air, for example) and some things I am glad to be rid of (6 volts and reduction gears).

Since a '71 was actually first sold in 1970, that makes my bus over 30 years old, often older than the age of today's average bus owner. (heh!) It is NOT a new bus.

And as a Baywindow owner, I feel ostracized.
There are very few events for those of us with Baywindows, and those that even allow Baywindow owners to attend openly state that their clubs are intended for Split Window busses only. The few, remaining 'non-year-specific' clubs are small in number, small in membership and tend to be back east. (I live in Northern California)

The US VW press is keen to feature Splitwindow bus restorations, while the UK VW press often features restorations, while articles about ALL VW campers are common (and campers of all years are in great demand) the US VW press seems to ignore Baywindows all together. Whereas this can be excused because some sort of vague model year cut-off rule (?), there are also articles on Type 3's and Watercooled.
A bit of double-standard.

Let's assume then that the US VW press is primarily interested in featuring only cars that directly relate to what products that their advertisers sell. After all, Baywindow owners don't NEED anything, we don't buy much and to an advertiser, we are not important. Fine.

But! What about the clubs? Let's assume that split window busses are getting increasingly scarce. Busses are rusting, busses are being crushed, busses are being sold to overseas buyers. (Check out the ads for body parts in the UK magazines, all parts are advertised as coming from California)

Already, many busses seen at events appear to be pampered and, let's be kind, are not exactly 'daily drivers'. These former workhorses are now slammed, pink or chartreuse and the only load they carry is a pair of 15" woofers. (No value judgments, really)

So what about the rest of us? At what point will the clubs, the events, the press start paying more attention to us '68 and up busses?

When I was a college student, split window busses were a dime a dozen. Hell, even I had one. What it must be like to want one now; they are scarce, expensive and straight ones in good shape are few and far between now.
As split window busses get harder to acquire, 'new blood', a necessary requirement for any hobby, is increasingly being locked out. In a few years, split window clubs will be increasingly irrelevant, sort of like the Studebaker owners club. It may become 'closed hobby'.

Have you ever seen the old farm machines at the state fair? Usually, gray-haired old guys in overalls are stoking one-stroke pump and tractor engines from the early 1900's. Want to get into that hobby? Forget it. All that stuff is gone, all bought and restored and only seen when they trailer it to a fair once a year. A 'closed hobby'.

And what is the big deal anyway? Anybody who drives an old bus is aware of the 'love-hate' relationship that just owning one entails, and the busses are not really that different from the pre-'68's. Our heaters don't work either, we are stuck in the right lane also, we are considered outlaws by Cops and Mother-inlaws everywhere we go.

We have more in common with Splitwindow busses than not, and it is time that events incorporate us into their lives, events and clubs.

Sat Mar 23, 2002 5:19 pm

I agree with much of what you have said. I bought a '69 Westfalia a few years ago and have fixed it up with a mild engine, paint, etc. I have seen a few feature articles in HotVWs magazine...there was a nice red baywindow in a recent issue, but they are rare articles. I have found that CIP1.com carries almost all the parts I've needed for my '69 including lots of the Westfalia camper parts and German parts like master brake cylinder. I've attended shows in California, Oregon, Washington and British Columbia (I live in Alberta, Canada, but have relatives in Costa Mesa, CA, so I get around a lot) over the last 20-25 years and actually find that many people are more interested in the '68-'71 buses...they are more rare than the splitwindows in some areas. Since I drive over 10,000 miles a year in my Westy, I prefer the nicer ride of the baywindow, IRS, doghouse engine, extra room inside, etc. As far as events, I've have found that the Seattle and Vancouver B.C. shows certainly include the Baywindows in their annual VW shows. Limbo in the only club that I've heard about that is specifically dedicated to post-'67 buses. As the years go by, I think we'll find that the bays become more accepted as true vintage VWs!!

Thu Mar 28, 2002 1:33 pm

It is getting better. I have been in love with the '68 to '71 breadloaf for years (I call them "notch-babies") and have had as many as three at one time (one a double cab....boo hoo it's gone).
Life started out as a series of "don't got that, try the dealer" and the dealer saying "that's obsolete, try a junkyard" scenarios.
But now, what's this???? they reman, the floormat? COOL! I'm still a little peeved at a steering box being over $500, however.
Oh, well... a future classic, as my dad always said.

Mike!

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:01 pm

I agree with you. They say my Bus is not Vintage, what ever. It is one year older than me and seven years older than my wife. We love it and most people not into VW love it, but clubs and others into VW sein have a problem with it. Come on it is a 1969 Bus what is there to give me crap over.
We love it so I guess that is what matters.

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:04 pm

I don't think this situation has changed in 30 years. You'll just have to start your own club.

Personally, I find the vintage scene boring. Everybody talks the same talk, buys the same parts and does the same stuff.

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:10 pm

I dunno. I see more of the "why not us" attitude with the super beetle owners, not us. I know around here (Long Island), I don't get any negativity from the split owners. Now, of course, being in the NE rust belt, there aren't many of us bus owners left, so maybe we bond more.

I've owned a 71 and now a 77 westy. My father had a 68 since the day I was born. I've seen the stuff the older owners say, but I've never felt like I wasn't part of the community.

Every show over here has bay classes just like the splits, so I don't see what you're talking about, I guess we're just lucky over here. I've never been shut out of a show yet, being that vintage is usually 25 years and older and as of this year we're all over that.

VW themselves is not gonna care about us because of the allure of the splitty. You look in the mags and you'd be hard pressed to find more than one or two pictures of bays.

But I agree, bays are starting to come into their own and are well on their way to getting the recognition they rightly deserve.

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:18 pm

Their VW's whats not to love about 'em??

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:24 pm

Smurf wrote: Their VW's whats not to love about 'em??

Hug a Dasher lately? ;-)

There are VW's and there are VW's. I don't think the logo makes it instantly loveable. I have no alligiance or affection for any h20 vw. And I've owned a 77 scirocco and currently have a 85 vanagon. They may have their little niches, but I personally see them like any other car but air coolers, as an appliance.

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:26 pm

i'm lucky i guess, over here, bays are big news!

a road worthy split is about $11000 to $13000, with a decent bay being about $3500 to $7000.

The average vw fan over here just can't afford a split, so it's the bays that are all the real action, more party busses and daily drivers :D Literally hundreds at the big shows. Splits are mostly show cars IMO

The debate in the UK is about the T25 (wedge, brickie, T3, vanagon, whatever), as most air cooled people don't consider them as "real" members of the scene, but as bays get more expensive they are catching on.

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:39 pm

This goes without saying. Its the evolution of the 'hobby' if thats what you want to call it. If we look at a micro level of the buses, break it down to year, how many people own and drive something from 1950??? Nobody, only those few people who have the couple restored ones that take them out once a year like you said. I think its just the nature of the beast, split windows were in less production and longer ago, which makes them more desirable for certain collectors. Same thing happens in every hobby. The people that have the "Desired" stuff form their own clubs to make themselves more special, they try to push themselves to the top. I believe it to be a normal habit, you probably consider your bus better than the next guys bus. You just don't have two front windows to differentiate your bus from the other. Just because I have a hightop which makes my bus cooler than everyone else's doesn't mean Im going to make my own Adventurewagen club, but it does make mine better :wink: haha. You get the idea right?

I would have to say "Dont be a playa hata" -ICE T

Another thing, I would rather have a bay because I drive mine regularly, I can get parts that aren't considered specialty items = $$$ and its still not the mundane Honda piece of crap everyone else drives.

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:42 pm

I dunno. Once the Vanagon went water-cooled I think the ties to the past were cut. I mean a better suspension, better this, better that, that I understand, but to change the heart of the beast? Doesn't work for me.

Does this make me the same kind of hater some post 67 owners accuse the others of being?

I don't think so. I don't dump on the vanagon owners, I just don't personally get the attraction. It's a minivan with a vw badge, not a bus.

We had this arguement a few months back. VW stopped making the bus in 1979 (well, in the US, that is).

Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:44 pm

I subscribe off and on to HVWs and VW trends and I have never seen a (oh wait I do remember an article on a Restored 68-72.) One article in 10 years of mags. I wanna see a Cal LOOK baywindow in a mag. Forget the front cover. When i first got my 74 it was just like the other Vdubs i have had, until i fixed the brake servo and almost threw myself out the Baywindow. You can stop a factory braked VW. Reliability has been above normal. Ilove it. My .02

Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:59 pm

paleale gets the thread gravedigger award for this month! :lol: :wink:

Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:38 pm

i am proud to say i love fatchicks.

Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:40 pm

keifernet wrote: paleale gets the thread gravedigger award for this month! :lol: :wink:

Holy old thread batman!!!

Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:52 pm

static wrote:
And as a Baywindow owner, I feel ostracized.
We have more in common with Splitwindow busses than not, and it is time that events incorporate us into their lives, events and clubs.

Enjoy your bus. Once these baywindows get all heated up in the market, the fraternity will likely break down into the haves and have-nots, the trailer queens and the beaters, and what fun is that? There are plenty of caravans and camping expeditions where you will meet people who love their cars, not showing off. I like it this way.
Colin

Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:59 pm

I love to show off the fact that my bus is daily driven and a beater. It wears its rock chips with pride. I also mock the show cars / trailer queens at all our local shows. You CAN have it both ways... even with a POS like mine. (she's ugly but I love her!)

Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:49 pm

i live in southern ariznona and only have a 79 westy and a 70 beetle. even out here the 'older' models are not seen as much as one would expect. here and there i run into baywindow or a early 70's beetle or super driving to work on a regular basis. more in the winter months than the summer. the older splits are rare, but when i do it is the same ones i see all the time (nothing wrong with that). very few bay-windows on the road out here. even less westy's.

i work in a dealership that has vw (i work on audi's) and two weeks ago i saw a vw dasher diesel in for service!! wow! is there a dasher club out there?

my oldest car is 35 years old this month and my newest will be 26 in march of 2005. i thought that i had the oldest cars, but my friend purchased a 1978. he always gave me crap about older cars, but i told him one day that his rabbit was older than my bus. welcome to the club of vintage (25+years) cars.

us baywindow owners are sitting on a goldmine to come. i would rather drop some money on fixing a 1978 bus than a 1978 buick regal.

those champagne editions will be the hot ticket in the near future.

Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:50 pm

CoBusDriver wrote:
I love to show off the fact that my bus is daily driven and a beater. It wears its rock chips with pride.(she's ugly but I love her!)

I want one, I want one. There is some clap-trap '69 for free in Sacramento that I'd dearly love for next lap of the country. It's red like yours, nice bang in the left rear quarter panel and a love tap in the front, hanging gardens of ripped westy canvas and visors, I want it, I want it, the engine has a gruesome A/C compressor sprouting like a tumor in there, I want that car.
Colin

Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:05 pm

You could do like my friends Richard and Dawn and load up all your tools, UPS all the parts to get it back on the road, and go greyhound and drive it back. If anyone could do it, you could!