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Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:59 pm

Hello all... I have this issue with my car that just WONT GO AWAY. I purchased a 67' vert with a rebuilt 1600sp and have been having problems with it fouling plugs every couple weeks since cooler weather set in. I have tried everything under the sun...from plug brands, types, etc., and changing out everything else between (coil, wires, distributer).

I just got it back from my trustworthy mechanic (I was getting desperate) who converted the motor over from a H30/31 carb to a rebuilt 34 PICT. Seems like it is running a little better, but now it stalls out when you take off...idles perfect, but barely touch the gas pedal and you hear it bogging down and it starts missing out. If you feather the RPMs up over 1500 rpm and keep it there while letting the clutch out, it is OK. If you dont... it spits, sputters, kicks, bangs and then takes off like normal.

Another friend looked at the H30/31 the day before changing them and said it was running a "65" jet and should be a "55" jet...and that was likely the problem all along. When I mentioned it to my mechanic, he said it would not make a difference... But, I am now wondering if my friend was right, cause it looks like the mechanic moved the "65" jet over to the 34 PICT and now I am having problems with this one also.

The acceleration is better...but the hesitation and choking at take off SUCKS worse!

Changed out so far:
Coil, Plugs, wires, Distributer (now running German .009), header and muffler (crazy thought).

What do I try next? Convert it to a Dual Port? Please help...

Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:26 am

The 34 carb has a reputation for not working very well with 009 distributor. You should try a vacuum advance dist. or a SVDA dist. There's lots of information in this site regarding this setup.

As for the H30/31 carb, it has two jets on the right (facing the generator). One is the idle jet and the other is something else. They are typically a 55 for the idle jet and a 65 for the other. You could try swapping the 65 for the 55 on your 34 carb., but I doubt it will help.

Make sure your new carb is tuned properly too. This site can get you started in the right direction: http://www.vw-resource.com/34pict3.html

Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:02 am

Number one- Find another mechanic. Clearly he doesn't know how to work on your volkswagen.

In my opinion, you have too much carb for a single port 1600. You need to get a rebuilt Solex 30-1 PICT with the high speed circuit. It came on that 67 when new. I would also dump the 009 although it's more compatible to the 30-1.
PM Keifernet on this site and he can sell you a rebuilt Solex carb jetted correctly. He might even have a rebuilt original vacuum advance distributor to sell you also.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:20 am

Wondering what method/how he adapted the 34 pict 3 to the single port manifold?

Also the jets as mentioned in the H 30/31 have to be in the correct locations

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=195052&highlight=pilot

How is your 009 timed? and while German 009's are better quality made... they are much OLDER now as they have not been made for many years so it might be worn or have a stuck/sticky advance mechanism... you need to confirm it's working right and timed right.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:41 am

If you opt to go with one of the new EMPI 30PICT-1 carbs, make SURE you read the sticky about all that that Andy, Keith, and I were involved with. If you don't want to fool with making necessary adjustments that they require, see if you can find an orginal German Solex 30PICT-1 carb that has been totally re-built and has the power jet in it as mentioned. That is a great carb for a 1600SP. This is what's in my '66 right now. And, an original 205K dizzy would be the best. You can get buy with a new SVDA 034, but the original is what you want. If you go with this set-up, and since you say you have a header, keep an eye on your plugs for fouling, and change your jets accordingly. The 34-3 and/or the 30-31 with an 009 is the source of your problems IMO. Put a nice 30-1 on there with the right dizzy and you won't believe the difference. And it helps a whole lot if you retain the original oil bath filter assembly in totally functional order with the warm air hose intact.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:05 am

Jody '71 wrote: If you opt to go with one of the new EMPI 30PICT-1 carbs, make SURE you read the sticky about all that that Andy, Keith, and I were involved with. If you don't want to fool with making necessary adjustments that they require, see if you can find an orginal German Solex 30PICT-1 carb that has been totally re-built and has the power jet in it as mentioned. That is a great carb for a 1600SP. This is what's in my '66 right now. And, an original 205K dizzy would be the best. You can get buy with a new SVDA 034, but the original is what you want. If you go with this set-up, and since you say you have a header, keep an eye on your plugs for fouling, and change your jets accordingly. The 34-3 and/or the 30-31 with an 009 is the source of your problems IMO. Put a nice 30-1 on there with the right dizzy and you won't believe the difference. And it helps a whole lot if you retain the original oil bath filter assembly in totally functional order with the warm air hose intact.

I have not found original German ones to be in such short a supply that anyone should have to go buy one of those EMPI ones.... but I guess some people will always believe that a "new" carb is going to be better :wink:

I'd like to at least see a pic of his engine and some more info on age/miles on the engine and other state of tune info... valves adjusted, confirmed timing set/advancing smooth and correctly through the RPM range etc.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:09 pm

My point exactly. Original German is always best. Although I mistakenly purchased one of these Chinese EMPI's, the evaluation that has been performed in comparison to original German Solex 30PICT-1 carbs will long be a benefit to the Samba membership. As I had mentioned to Andy, and after the mods done to mine by him, it will be used only as a spare.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:10 am

WOW. Thanks to all who have replied. There are many great responses and ideas to start chasing. I am not sure where to start on responses...

As far as condition of the motor, it is less then a year old and has approx 5000 miles on it. I recently adjusted the valves to the recommended .006 and I try to to that and change the oil every other month. Usually, they are OK and I may have to adjust one or two of them slightly.

For the manifold, the mechanic "notched" out the mounting holes...so instead of seeing two holes, you now see two slots the carb sits in.

Overall though...it sounds like I need to start locating a new Dizzy... That will be the next adventure!

Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:26 am

67' Kabriolet wrote: WOW. Thanks to all who have replied. There are many great responses and ideas to start chasing. I am not sure where to start on responses...

As far as condition of the motor, it is less then a year old and has approx 5000 miles on it. I recently adjusted the valves to the recommended .006 and I try to to that and change the oil every other month. Usually, they are OK and I may have to adjust one or two of them slightly.

For the manifold, the mechanic "notched" out the mounting holes...so instead of seeing two holes, you now see two slots the carb sits in.

Overall though...it sounds like I need to start locating a new Dizzy... That will be the next adventure!

I have seen that before and that's not the best thing to do IMHO... you should have been given other option than to hack your single port intake to slap on a 34 pict 3....

If you want an original German 30 pict 1 just PM me...

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:00 pm

'67 Kabri,

Since you say your mech hacked out the flange on the intake to fit a 34, you may want to consider what happens when the correct carb is installed. You may have a serious vacuum leak there even using the correct gasket with the right carb. But, then again maybe not. It depends on the gasket. You may be able to custom cut a new gasket that will fit and seal properly, and use hole punch gasket cutters for your configuration, or some really nice #11 blades used with an exacto knife. I myself can't really say without looking at what the base of your intake manifold looks like where the carb bolts on since it's been customized. Original single port manifolds are plenty on the classifieds here, just make sure that the heat riser tubes are clear prior to purchase if you decide to get a non-hacked original intake.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:52 pm

My bus single port engine has a new H30/31 carb, with a 009 distributor. Runs fine with no flat spot.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:48 pm

boat_builder wrote: My bus single port engine has a new H30/31 carb, with a 009 distributor. Runs fine with no flat spot.

That set up will run OK. But an SVDA will get about 4 MPG better and run cooler because of the increased advance.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:42 am

MedicTed wrote: boat_builder wrote: My bus single port engine has a new H30/31 carb, with a 009 distributor. Runs fine with no flat spot.
That set up will run OK. But an SVDA will get about 4 MPG better and run cooler because of the increased advance.

I really don't know why people bought 009s in the first place. Both my VWs had them fitted when I bought them. As I said, my 68 bus has one...runs ok, but yes, it really drinks the petrol.

My 72 ghia (1600 twin port with 34pict3 carb) has a 009 as well and has a horrible flat spot. I've just bought a new bosch 034 svda and can't wait to get it fitted!

Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:15 am

67' Kabriolet wrote:
I just got it back from my trustworthy mechanic (I was getting desperate) who converted the motor over from a H30/31 carb to a rebuilt 34 PICT. Seems like it is running a little better, but now it stalls out when you take off...idles perfect, but barely touch the gas pedal and you hear it bogging down and it starts missing out. If you feather the RPMs up over 1500 rpm and keep it there while letting the clutch out, it is OK. If you dont... it spits, sputters, kicks, bangs and then takes off like normal.

My first though when I read this was "how the heck did he get a 34 to fit on an sp manifold???" That's answered by your later comment - elongating the holes in the flange.

YUK!

There is a lot to respond to in the first para above but the flange issue needs addressing first. The dp manifold which fits the 34 series carbs has a larger internal diameter to cope with the larger airflow through the 34, so you get a decent airflow into the engine. You will probably have a nice sharp step where the carb and flange met which must adversely affect the airflow into the manifold, and of course the manifold isn't designed for the increased airflow of that carb.

The 30 series or the H30/31 is designed to work with that manifold - it's pointless to go any bigger on the carb! It's like trying to fill your lungs through a straw - no matter how big your lungs are the straw provides a dandy restriction so you still run out of breath.

Now to the other issues in that para above. The symptoms described are the classic 34PICT/3 and 009 issues. These two items do NOT work well together - some engines cope OK and some engines just run like c**p. See more comments below.

Quote:
Another friend looked at the H30/31 the day before changing them and said it was running a "65" jet and should be a "55" jet...and that was likely the problem all along. When I mentioned it to my mechanic, he said it would not make a difference... But, I am now wondering if my friend was right, cause it looks like the mechanic moved the "65" jet over to the 34 PICT and now I am having problems with this one also.

The acceleration is better...but the hesitation and choking at take off SUCKS worse!

Almost all the Solex, Bocar and Brosol carbs work best with a 55 idle jet. A 65 idle jet was used on the heavy-bodies KGs and Kombies etc which used the Solex carbs - it was useful in getting the heavier car off the line. And the 1970 30PICT/3 (the for-runner to the H30/31) also used a 65 idle jet so the car would not stall off the line since these carbs used a very lean main jet (an early emissions thing). The idle jet looks like a brass bolt in the right side of the carb - it sits in a protrusion heading down to the bottom of the carb.

The 34PICT/3 does use a 65 power jet. It to is in the right side, but sits in a protrusion heading up to the top of the carb. This jet only comes into play at high power and high rpms - nothing to do with idle and getting the car moving.

So WHICH jet was your friend talking about, and WHICH jet did the mechanic change, idle or power?

Quote:
As far as condition of the motor, it is less then a year old and has approx 5000 miles on it. I recently adjusted the valves to the recommended .006 and I try to to that and change the oil every other month. Usually, they are OK and I may have to adjust one or two of them slightly.

For the manifold, the mechanic "notched" out the mounting holes...so instead of seeing two holes, you now see two slots the carb sits in.

If he were my mechanic he wouldn't be anymore!

[/quote]
Overall though...it sounds like I need to start locating a new Dizzy... That will be the next adventure![/quote]

Now you are talking. The -009 was originally designed as a simple cheap distributor for VW industrial engines - compressors and generators and such. Millions of them were sold in the 50s and 60s. In these applications, the almost constant speed engines did not need load sensing (vacuum) so VW saved a few bucks on every engine with the 009 style distributor.

Now, we know they are cheap - that's why a lot of folks buy them. But cheap here also means poor quality for todays mass produced 009s - most of them vary in the amount of advance they make, not good.

And the boy-racers keep saying "they work well on racing VWs so they must be better". Yeah right! The racing VW engine is either running at full throttle and high rpm (max advance), or it's switched off. NOT exactly street use with lots of variation between low-speed-high-load and high-speed-less-load (throttle position and rpm combinations) is it?

Bugs always had vacuum distributors so the timing was load sensitive - it recognises both throttle position and rpms. And because they are load sensing, they can be built with MORE max advance than the 009...40-42 degrees v the 009s 30-32 degrees. That extra advance means better fuel economy when cruising with a steady throttle - better for your pocket, better for your engine (less soot) and better for the environment. 009s can NOT have more than 30-32 degrees or the engine will detonate/ping if you floor it at lower rpms, so a lot of the time they are running under-advanced (more heat, less economy).

replacing the 009 with a vacuum distributor (the SVDA style works best) is a much better solution than tweeking the carb to make up for the failings of the 009. Most attempts at "fixing" the acceleration stumbles are only partly successful and always results in poor fuel economy.

Regards

Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:07 pm

Welp... Had to change out my plugs again. They were fouled out. Put in a new set of Bosch and it is running now. The weather cooled down again and it was around 50 degrees this AM when I took my kids to the bus stop. Even with the new plugs it runs really poorly...missing, spitting, sputtering even worse then with the H30/31.

On a slightly different note...my dad sent me a JUR4 distributor with the numbers 0 231 137 011. Does anyone know if this will work on my 1600 SP?

Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:27 pm

Ordered new SVDA this evening...along with new NKG plugs. I should have them by the end of next week. I will post a response to how things work out. Thanks again for all who have given input into this.

Brad

Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:05 pm

Interesting enough... I tried out the old distributor from my dad and it worked very well! I also recived the SVDA and tried it...with no luck. It was the same as the 009. Hat Spark is sending me a new Dizzy next week to try.

So far...the old style Vacuum Advance is working the best by far! even with an old set of points and cap. The hesitation went away! My plugs are still getting sooty though? not sure what it up with that.

Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:32 pm

you really need to take kiefernet up on his offer

Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:45 am

Need to check out some old posts on the Hot Spark products also! Tried them Myself and ended up back to compufire! Do a search!

Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:53 am

For a 4 month period between y 1904 failing and my 2180 being done, I put a stock 1600DP in my car. The engine came with a H30/31PICT and a 009 and ran... .sort of OK. I took the opportunity to try a few different distributors. I installed a Bosch 034 (SVDA), 019 and 010 and found the 019 gave the best performance and fuel economy of the bunch.

I then swapped the carb with a 34PICT-3 and tried all 4 again. I like the 034 best with that carb, but switched back to the H30/31PICT and 019 combo which was still the best of the 8 I tested.