TheSamba.com :: View topic - Beetle starting problems.Please help! Im going threw hell

Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:09 pm

Hi all, first of all this is my first post and just to fill you in on my problem ill tell you a bit about myself and the Bug. Well i'm Tom from Jersey channel islands and the bug is from Germany and is a 1969 sedan with a 1600cc engine ive rebuilt the bitch from scrap and has just been passed to get its plates from the DVS.

So here is my problem some times she starts some times she doesnt when she does start i take her out for a drive everything is running smoothly then after several miles she will just die on me. Ill try and start her again and she wont so ill toe her back home and ill o round the back and do the usual checks i dont need to explain them to you because i know what im doing (most of the time)..anyways ill leave her alone fer an hour or two and she will start and then the whole process starts over again.

Ok this is what i think is the problem i have a electrical problem probably some where from the ignition switch to the starter motor or solenoid, ive checked the coil,points, timing,battery ignition switch, and the starter motor is brand new so is the coil,dizy,carb, battery etc.. i used to have pertronix electric points thought it was them so switched to manual points and still same prob anyways i tried a voltage test from the ignition to battery and im getting 12.8 volts from battery to ignition and 10.6 volts from ignition to coil so where has the 2.2 volts gone??? also checked voltage from battery to voltage regulator and from there to starter and its reading 12.6. My question is when she starts she will start probably about 50 times but when i go out on a run with her she will just cut out and wont start again so why is this happening any ideas?? oh when i mean she doest start what i mean she wont fire i just get a clicking sound from the dizy...

Tom :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:06 pm

Here's a wild guess. Assuming it shuts off like cutting the ignition switch, I say a bad coil might be the logical culprit. Maybe you could 'borrow' one just to make sure. I realize you said you 'checked' the coil, but toyou may have to tell us what procedure you used.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:16 pm

hi thanks for reply the procedure i used to test coil was to use 3 others one was a bosch the other 2 are flamethrowers i also used a static test light on them if you know that procedure anyways still got the problem

Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:20 pm

Hi,

Ok, you've checked voltage at the coil when it won't start..yes?
Have you pulled the wire from the coil to the dist. and checked for a spark?
If you have spark there, did you pull a plug wire off the plug and check for spark??

If you have spark at the plug wire, it is probably fuel.

You may have gunk in your fuel tank floating around and clogging the pickup pipe a, gunk in the fuel line to the engine floating around and clogging things, bad fuel pump or a seized fuel pump push rod, or a stuck closed float valve.

When it won't start, does it smell of fuel? flooded?
When it won't start, take the air cleaner off and see if it squirts fuel down the throat when you operate the accelerator lever.

Spark, compression, fuel. Right quantities at the right time and it will run.

Don't go getting too exotic until you verify exactly what you do NOT have when it won't start. I am ruling out poor compression for it does start and run fine sometimes, compression isn't a here today, gone tomorrow and back again kind of thing.
Spark and Fuel can do that.

Give us more info, what do you mean by "clicking" from the dizy?? You ALWAYS have spark arching in the dist which will make a faint "click" but is it going to were it needs to go (the spark plug) or is carbon tracking or moisture, a crack or burnt rotor causing a ground or jumping terminals?

Dave

Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:28 pm

ok dave nice one for setting me straight there compression is fantastic number 1,2,3,4 are all reading 121psi evreything is running fine fuel pump dizy leads coil everything you can think off is fine she just wont start i turn the key to the crank position ie all the way to on and nothing just a click but maybe if i leave her for a while ill just chance my luck and she purrs like a kitten idle at 900rpm advance at 3300rpm at 30 degrees ive also put her in 3rd gear and rocked her back and forth just incase the starter has got stuck

Thanks
Tom

Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:34 pm

ok im just thinking off the top of my head here what if a run a wire all the way from the ignition to the startermotor bypassing the loom since im gettin 12.6 volts from battery to the ignition anyways and try starting her that way if it works ive got a brake in the loom somewhere probably the red and black wire do ye think thats a good idea? Just to add the starter motor is brand new and the startr motor wouldnt cause the ehgine to cut out like as if the ignition key was turned off hile driving would it and if the starter motor got stuck while driving i would have heard it whine or it would have probably blew up lol yes i know im probably not explaining my self to well but ive done all the checks you have mentioned to no avail ive been trying to solve this problem for 3 weeks now and no luck the books dont tell me anything and i cant seem to find a similar fault on the net for reference

Thanks tom

Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:45 pm

Hi,

I'm just a tad confused, excuse me for that but..I've read and reread your posts and then you mention the starter thing, is this new?

When the engine dies, is it like the key turned off or does it buck and sputter and then die?

When you try to start if after it dies, you turn the key to operate the starter, does the starter work and turn the engine or does it just go click?

I think you said when you turn the key to start it only goes click and if you hold the key in the start position that the starter might then operate after a period of time??

Help me understand what is not happening when you try to start it.
Cranks but won't fire and run
Doesn't crank most of the time and occasionally will crank and fire and run

Car not starting because of starter issues is a completely different animal than starter works but engine doesn't start while being rotated.

Dave

Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:51 pm

Ok Dave the car just dies as if you turned off the key no splutter nothing engine stops completely then i cant get it to start again it just clicks but if i leave it for a while sometimes that is it might just start again and evrything is running normal if i leave it just idiling away for 20 mins or so its fine but as its put under load after several miles it will just die and the whole process begins all over again this has happened about 12 times but now i havnt been able to start it for over a day or so

Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:10 pm

The most annoying thing is when i leave her alone for a while and she starts i would say something is overheating and it cools down and then allows me to start again but its been over a day now the battery is still holding its charge so nothing is pulling it down i know my problem is electrical but im i gonna have to resort to pulling out the whole loom spending 200 quid and strting all over again i hope not thats why i need someones help ive tried evrything i know and im fracked if i know ive also asked my brother in law for help and he is stumped and i though he was the king of vw's and hes an electrical engineer and builds american muscle cars but he just gets frustrated to quickly and gives up.
So if anyone has came across a similar problem can you point me in the correct direction

Thanks tom

Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:11 pm

When it dies on the road,
Before you call the tow truck
What do you not have? Spark or fuel ?
or you don't know because you are by yourself and can't turn the key and watch for a spark at the plug wire by yourself?

Or
When it dies, the starter is dead and will not turn the engine over?

Is your ground strap from the nose cone of the tranny attached to the chassis and in good shape with clean connections? A bad ground can do some really funny things to these cars electrics.
Without this heavy woven ground wire, the only grounding this cars engine gets is through the accelerator pedal cable and/or clutch cable. Maybe a little through through the shift rod.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:22 pm

when it dies the starter is dead
The ground strap is clean and secure a very good connection
The Starter is brand new and i have done several checks to see if it works the old screw driver test etc and ive also taken it off and tested it manualy with seperate fire switch and battery everything fine

Stick in there dave i need help from guys like you

Thanks tom

Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:40 pm

Hi,

Besides a starter being bad.

Another question. When the car dies on the highway, what electrical items no longer operate?
All of the +12 volts in the entire car travel from the battery to the voltage regulator. From there it goes to the headlamp switch.
From the headlamp switch it gets routed to power everything in the car except for 12 v required to spin the starter which has a proprietary connection straight to the 12 v + battery terminal.
The 4 way flashers are direct wired off the headlamp switch using fuse # 9, see if they work.

I would make sure that the starter has the wire from the battery (a 25mm wire) and it is a good voltage supply.

I would take a scrap of wire (6mm) or so and remove the smaller wire on the starter and install the scrap to the terminal and run that into the car so you can make a direct connection to the + terminal (be careful, battery fumes are explosive)
Put the car in neutral and touch the wire to the + terminal, Does the starter work??
If no, the starter has problems, either the solenoid or the starter itself. Or a bad ground situation. (make sure the battery - wire is to a good clean ground.) Maybe the pinion drive is hung up in the ring gear??

If yes, the starter worked, you have issues with the wire from the light switch to the solenoid.

Do you have 12 volts at terminal 30 on the light switch? if Yes, what about to the heavy red wire at ignition switch? Yes? With the key in start, the red with black stripe wire?? IF yes....
Turn the key to start, check if you have a strong 12 v to the small wire on the starter. Keep in mind that There are two single connectors in the wire from the ignition switch to the starter, check them if you don't have 12v at the starter wire.

IF the starter works with the "hot wire" method but the car does not start, hook up another wire to the coil where all of the black wires are connected and fasten that temporarily to the + terminal on the battery. Make the starter run, does the car start and run?
If yes,......

The coil wire, while not fused attaches to the fuse panel, it is the black wire on the hot side of the # 1 fuse. Are there 12 volts there?

If yes, you have power at the #1 and #2 fuses you would suspect the wire to the coil.

This is all complex yet simple at the same time. I am trying to explain from 4000 miles away how to check your wires without ripping them out first by just bypassing them temporarily with known good wire.

Nothing to do with your problem but I've never "met" anyone from Jersey. I know many people from Great Britain and current have a young man staying with me while he tries to become a legal immigrant into the USA. I'm sure you know that New Jersey USA was named after your little island? Being only 12 nautical miles from France, what side do your cars drive on? the world wide "correct" left side or the "proper" British territory right side? (seeing that you've been a "property" of England for many centuries I'm guessing Right side?).
It looks like a fascinating place you've chosen to live, the fine political line you walk between independence from and yet being dependent upon England.
Your entire island is smaller than the regional school district my children attended when we lived in Pennsylvania! Plus your year around population is larger than our year around population was though during the summer we surged to well over 200,000 people.
Ah well, enough wandering.....

Good Luck
Dave

Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:05 am

Hello again dave you have stuck with me i ned to goto work now as its 8 in the morn here ive already tried last week most of what you have said i dont have a starter or earth problem that is for sure but ill go round and try evreything again before i torch the wiring system i should have just put a new wiring loom in on the first place when i had her stripped down to the panties lol anyways later bro and nice one on the historical trip of jersey ill tell ye more on the beetle and my little island later

Thanks
Tom

Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:03 am

it sounds like you have a bad connection at the ignition switch or bad ignition switch or a loose or shreaded wire from the startet to the ignition next time you decide to take it out bring a buddy along and if it doesit again , have him cranks it while you wiggle the wires at the ignition switch if nothing happends take your meter and check the power at the starter solenoid while your buddy is cranking the car.see if the voltage drop is greater than 3 volts.if its is you have too much corrosion inside the wire and need to replace the faulty wire.i put my money on either a bad switch or loose or broken connection.

Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:46 am

Done that my friend and still no joy this is a tough one eh? How do ye think i feel its been driving me crazy the ignition switch has also been replaced twice let me tell ye a little about myself im 36 and ive had beetles since i was 17 ive restored camper vans and all years of beetles probably around 6 now and 3 vans. So i have lots of parts lying around like about 3 1969 beetles that just sit in the field chewing on the grass that i occasionally steal parts from its a hobby of mines im no expert far from it but ive never came across this problem before but i dont want to re-loom the beetle as the wiring loom is clean and tidy and looks good i dont have x-ray eyes so i dont know its great all the way threw but as far as ive tested and seen evreything is where it should be and clean and tidy. almost evreything on the beetle has been reconditioned or its new.

I 100% thankyou all for trying to solve this problem with me or for me as im stumped but please do keep hitting me with ideas and have i done this or that type of questions im sure ill get to solving the problem.

Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:54 am

Hi,

I'll repeat myself here, run temporary replacement wires to isolate out bad circuits. Bypass keys and switches and connections. There are only two wires you are dealing with, one for the starter and one for the ignition.
Doing this will narrow your problems down in a hurry and locate it.
If the bypass wires don't work, I'd double, triple check your grounding for Use hot feeds straight off the battery and see what happens.

Wiring diagram (USA) but it is the best I can do. The major difference is that you may have the left and right parking light option that we don't use here. Pre67VW doesn't go into your years.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_6869.jpg

Dave

Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:12 am

Cheers dave thats what i was suggesting in an earlier post but ive not had a chance to do yet but soon as i do ill let ye know i guess its my last hope before things get messy. oh need for wiring diagrams i have them all well most off i think. anyways thanks

Tom

Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:17 am

Oh bye the way i love this site and im actually helping others threw there problems im amazed ive not came across it before crazy hu? You Yanks kill me he! he! but please don't destroy the world lol!

Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 pm

Tommy,

DJ has given you some really good advice. And I will chime in here. And since you say you've worked on busses before, my example may be of some assistance. There is a wire from your VR that goes up to the dash. If that one's f*cked somewhere, you will be plauged with electrical difficulties. I pegged that wire and that was it, and have left it that way. Try as mentioned running a peg wire from the VR up to your dash connections, or peg any other wires that may be your fix-it solution. Also consider all the connections on your VR, and what shape it is in. You may indeed have a wiring harness issue that will never go away until you can find the source. It also helps if your VR is rated for your generator. Temporay fixes are fine, but you may need the new shebang. Soldering all connections with good silver always helps.

Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:03 pm

cheers jody vr is fine, i replaced the regular ages ago was one of the first things i looked at ,i might know what the issue is here if you read all my posts you will see that ive almost replaced with all new parts and retested electrical parts etc. The problem lies in the wiring but what if the starter motor bush im using is some how making the rod stick and maybe after a while it comes loose and she starts again as ive said before ive taken out the starter motor before to check or replace with another and bang she will start but as she goes under load and if she doesnt stop by herelf due to an unknown problem or if i stop her my self she might not start or she might start you see where im comming from ive just came up with the idea of it being the bush but just about 20 mins ago i took out the starter motor and checked the bush pulled it out replaced with another yes the correct one for the starter motor im using and bang of she goes righ brilliant ive sorted it no i frackin havnt she wont start again so im back to the wiring problem he! he! here we go round the mullberry bush the mullberry bush the mullberrybush lol!