TheSamba.com :: View topic - Beetle starting problems.Please help! Im going threw hell

Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:11 pm

Hey,

What Jody was pointing out is that the wire comes from the battery + to the Voltage Regulator and from there it goes to the light switch and feeds everything.
That is why I asked what else does not work when the car dies for every electrical item feeds from the light switch.

These old wires crack and corrode and lose conductivity. Copper as you flex it changes molecular structure and gets more brittle and over time the multistranded wire is a series of broken fragments held together with the vinyl coating.

Dave

Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:17 pm

cheers man that chemistry lesson rocked i totaly understand what jody was saying and everything electrical still works when the car dies apart from her starting the only voltage drop i get is from the ignition wire to the coil from 12.6 volts to 10.4 but i cant figure out where the loss of 2.2 volts is going ok answer me this question how come everytime a change a bloody starter motor she will start.???

Thanks again

Tom (please feel free to slap me if im starting to loose it or become irritated)

Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:37 pm

Just a guess, you jiggle the wires about and by God's grace you make a connection inside the insulating jacket and it works! It vibrates, the connection breaks and it doesn't work????

RUN SOME TEMPORARY WIRES and rule out the bad wire theory or confirm it.

Dave

Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:49 pm

OK ill need to put this on hold for a while ill get back to you all when ive sorted her out ill try my best not to rip out the loom and everything else to replace it i have other things like family to sort out. Thanks very much Dave for the help you are a legend you seem to be a Jedi master in the making in the Dub world.. Im gutted none of what you have said has solved the matter but i dont give up that easy its probably something completely stupid and i just have to have my stupid head on to solve it.

Later bro fom the small dot on the globe to the dusty lands of America Ye! Ha!

Tom

Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:53 pm

I'm not, just have had VW's since 1969 is all, 1955 - 68 and almost every year in between, Believe me, I make more than my share of mistakes!

Good luck
dave

Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:51 pm

Toots,

You may have a generator problem since you say you're convinced the voltage regulator is functioning as it should. 12.5 volts will start your car fine, anything less than that won't. You can replace your starter and /or solenoid all you want and as need be, but you're getting some type of electrical drain somewhere. Perhaps the main ground strap is roached out. Sounds like you may need to investigate the functionality of your generator. Like, when was the last time you replaced the brushes? Are the interior bearings ok? Like, if you take off the belt, can you feel a push/pull on the pulley? The windings ok...etc etc....??
And by the way, some of us here on Samba are not Yanks. Lots of us live below the Mason/Dixon line. :lol:
You may want to try PMing Naskeet, he is usually on the Late Bay Bus forum. He is across the pond like yourself. Nigel is an electrical wiz if you can figure out what he is trying to say. I have problems with his punctuation but this dude is a real Mr. "Know it All" when it comes to electrical stuff.

Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:29 pm

Sorry Jodi yer a class dame i dint mean to hurt your feelings i forgot about the American revolution.

The 12volt 90mm Dynamo is new and in great condition charges the battery just fine as i said in my prev posts the ground straps are solid ie in great condition

Thanks again
Tom
Bye the way is that Ava Gardner? or a young grace kelly cant realy make out the face.mmm! maybe marilyn monroe

Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:51 pm

I've seen this on many occaisions I almost bet you if you pull your ignition switch and look at it it will be cracked There are a bunch of old post here on the samba that are the same fix in the end. Mostly happens with vw things when we try to cheap out and put a bettle ignition in place of the thing it will fit but not tight and it will crack hell you tryed every thing else

Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:07 am

sorry dude ignition switch is fine if you read earlier posts you will read that i have replaced twice i tried just to test it its not the ignition

Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:23 am

That's Rita Hayworth.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:14 am

Hi,

You really need to tell us what you've done with suggestions made.
You told us you have significant voltage loss in some wires
You told us the starter will not work
You told us the car dies while in operation but everything else continues to work but you can't restart because the starter won't work.
You told us the starter is 100% fine along with the ignition switch, generator, voltage regulator.
You told us that you are sure the engine dying is caused by a loss of electricity and not fuel.
You told us you took out the starter and it worked on the bench and upon reinstallation but now no longer works.

Voltage loss is due to resistance
Resistance is insufficient wire size for the length of it and the voltage you wish to push through it.
It can also be bad connections.
It can also be bad flow characteristic of the wire.

Bad flow in a wire is due to copper corrosion within the insulation, minute cracks in the wire strands or leakage somewhere out of the insulation. or a combination of all of this.

It has been suggested that you completely bypass some suspect wires, one at a time, have you yet done this and if so what is the result?

We need some feed back here if you desire more suggestions.

I will again say that all the cars electricity flows from the battery to the voltage regulator and from there to the light switch.
What is your voltage at each of these locations?
Now start checking voltage at ignition switch feed wire, ignition circuit wire, starter wire, etc.
Let us know your results.

We need you to help us help you here. None of us can see or touch your car.

Dave

Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:42 am

Ok then where shall i start first of all i would like to say i went up to the beetle 10 mins ago and turned the key and she started just fine took her out fer a drive evrything ok ive parked her up and tried starting her 20 times and she stills starts ive also did some voltage tests and here they are.
Reg to light switch 12.6
reg to gen 0v or 13.8 when running
battery to reg 12.8
Ignition to light switch 12.6
ignition to starter 0 as expected
ignition to emerency flasher relay 12.6
coil is reading 11.8 when egnition is on position
Connection on starter motor are fine
need i go on?
ive shakin the living daylight out of the loom when she was running to see if she would stop but she kept on running
Ive checked the ground straps they are spotless with great connection
Could a faulty light switch be the cause but when she dies they still work nice and bright
Ive instaled an emergency flasher relay and switch as it dint have one when i restored her this works fine but could it be that? as i never tested her out before i put that in so i dont know?
But she starts fine now but i know she will die on me again but when?
Its kinda hard to do checks now

Avery frustrated jerseyman (well im scottish realy)
Tom

Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:53 am

mmm! what if the starter motor im using has some kind of hidden fault with in it that is intermittent and just seems to play on me once in a while ive ordered a brand new one if its not that, the starter motor wont goto waste so i wont be wasting my money. ill put that on and give the car a test run. But why does the car die on the road could a faulty starter motor cause this if its surging im not and electrician so a dont have the true know how but could it do that.
Tom

Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:58 am

Hi,

I've never really thought they are related UNLESS you have power feed problems to the ignition switch. That's the very reason I've been suggesting you jumper wire past the exisiting wires and see what happens.

A bad "new" starter is common and likely to happen

Dave

Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:05 am

good to here from you again ive done the jumper story weeks ago but evreytime ive done it shes been starting but ive never really done it when she wont start but now she does start ive done it and she starts but she already was starting so ill need to wait till she stops starting again to try it.
Tom

Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:06 am

Toots,

So you say it started the 20 times or so with no problems. All of your lights function flawlessly in every mode, inclusive of turn signals, parking lights, hi/low beams, brake lights, reverse lights (if so equipped), all warning lamps in the dash ok, horn works fine, brake warning light works(if so equipped), wipers work, and everything else is fine, but your car
still dies?
Then you've got a fuel delivery problem. Is this the original fuel tank? If so, then this may be a reason for the engine cutting out at intermitent intervals. Yank your tank, clean it out good and replace the strainer in it. And blow your tunnel fuel line out with some compressed air. Then consider how your carb is and how gummed it it could be. You could have a nice clean carb, but crap sloshing around in the bottom of an original fuel tank will clog your strainer once the fuel level drops to about 2 gallons. This usually doesn't happen when the tank is full.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:06 am

The red wire with the black tracer from the ignition switch to the starter shouldnt be reading any volts yeh as its negative is that right?

Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:11 am

Thanks jodi ive had the tank out cleaned it real good when i was restoring her the carb was new and been stripped and cleaned its a bocar 34 pict-3 car b i hate them anyways its spotless. Yes everything works electrical when she dies but if it was a fuel problem that wont be the cause fer her not starting the starter motor

Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:17 am

maybe i should just kill this post and rewire everything its a big job but the time it has taken me to try and solve the problem 3 weeks now i would have had everything wired up now with spanking brand new gleaming wires and connectors for another 30 years. I know its gonna cost me 225 quid fer a new loom but if anyone can tell me where i can get a cheaper one from America that post to Jersey ill be up fer that.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:26 am

Go over to the Bay Window Forum and look for NaSkeet, he's got a post about T-shirts it's like on the second page right now. Send him a PM and ask him for help. He's on your side of the pond and knows the electrical stuff