TheSamba.com :: View topic

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:42 pm

Well here it is my first thread on this forum. I've been planning to post but this has been a dragged out project and wasn't sure when I would finish. It started a year ago in the middle of winter when my 86 vanagon caught fire in my neighbors driveway . I stopped by to talk, it was -5* so I left it running when I went inside to talk. 15 minutes later someones was blowing their horn. I step outside and thought I sprung a coolent leak, until I saw fire!
Extinguishers were useless, luckily My neighbor had a hose in his garage. By the time the fire trucks arrived I had it out, but LOTs of damage was done and my hands were frostbit. Water froze as it hit the surrounding metal.
My just installed Z-bed was toast and everything on top of the engine was gone including pot metal: like the airflow sensor. The rear engine vent grills were gone and lots of burned warped sheetmetal.
The reason for explaining the damage is I took no pictures and I wouldn't want to see them anyway. The moral is to buy the best fuel line you can get and check the clamps.
Here are some bad (in shop) pics since sand blasting , body work and paint.

Most people would have written this plain-jane van off, but I've owned it for years , it was just painted the year before and the front half still looked good. A parts van was bought to replace all the burned parts including all the harnesses for the engine and lights.
Next post is the turbo setup.

Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:14 pm

Before I get all kinds of comments about running a carburator on a vanagon, Let me be the first to say: Yea, fuel injection is better.
Remember everything was gone and my parts van has severly rusted injectors, corroded parts and it won't compensate for the turbo anyway.
This setup is experimental, I have pleanty of other options if I don't like it, like the megasquirt that I built or complete Cis-e with knock sensor from Saab 900. But this carb will get my cam broke-in and down the road. Who knows? I might just like it! It's a 40mm dhla sealed at the shafts for boost. I am very familiar with blow through setups.
The manifold is my design and it splits the engine correctly unlike most single 2bbl setups on the type 1. Cylinders 1&3 share one barrel and cylinders 2&4 on the other barrel. The runners are slightly smaller than the stock 2.1 ones. Blowing compressed air down the carb flange pushes equal air out each port flange, so fuel distribution should be very equal.
Anyone familiar with turbos knows pre-heating is not a problem since boost produces heat.

Here's the tri Y exhaust I made, the primarys are equal but due to space constraints the secondary pipes are not. This is much less important with a turbo than naturally aspirated. Shorter is best , this system is shorter than most Type1 turbo systems.

The turbo is from a late 80s 300d MB That is one of several I have from my days working as a Mercedes Tec from 89-95. The warranty department was throwing them in the dumpster and I was removing them :lol: . Bad trap-oxidizers (catalyst) was the reason and MB was taking no chances :roll: . Most are good, like the one on my 65 bugs 1776cc :twisted:

Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:25 pm

Vanagon-good, fire-bad. My 90 (tiico) succumbed last Oct. Wish I had the skill to revive it as you are doing. Good Luck with the project-looking forward to hearing how the turbo works out.
Paul

Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:34 pm

More pics

Top end oiling for 1.4s

My special Hose setup

Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:27 pm

NICE JOB! I like your rocker oilers.

Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:25 pm

How are you going to deal with the oil return from the turbo?

Andrew

Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:31 am

very nice!! :!: =P~

Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:14 am

My van doesn't have power steering, yet I have P/S pump :wink:

Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:20 am

Wow, Joe, nice job! There's a turbo my future so it's great to see your ideas. I'll be sticking with FI though; no carbs for me.

Was it hard to disconnect the intake runners from the end castings? I'm going to do some custom intakes soon and that's where it starts, so I'm curious.

I see you modified the water pump inlet pipe. Isn't that thing a bitch? It's so hard to get the exhaust runners away from both rear cylinders what with that thing and the motor support and beam in the way. I'm always tempted to reposition the pipe on mine too, but I'm designing my exhausts to be duplicated for other people so I need to make them fit stock setups. Doing a one-off gives you a lot more freedom. Did you just use the stock unmodified tstat housing/manifold on #3, or did you mod that too?

I love the rocker oilers; I may borrow that. I've been thinking a lot about direct oiling the whole top end there. Drilled rocker shafts, and oil lines going direct, maybe sprayer ports drilled right into the rocker hubs to squirt oil at the valve stem and spring. Then block the ends of the pushrods so they stay empty, cutting down on reciprocating weight.

Did you put in piston squirters, too?

I'm wondering if the oil flow into and out of the turbine will be adequate to keep the PS pump from starving. Those pumps move a pretty high flow, and can't tolerate running dry. Maybe a bigger pulley on the pump if it's a problem. I don't know what kind of flow moves thru a turbine bearing.

Here's an idea: take the output from the PS pump, run it thru a cooler, and route to your top end oilers?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:54 am

tencentlife wrote: Wow, Joe, nice job! There's a turbo my future so it's great to see your ideas. I'll be sticking with FI though; no carbs for me.

Was it hard to disconnect the intake runners from the end castings? I'm going to do some custom intakes soon and that's where it starts, so I'm curious.?
The manifold pipe is slightly smaller than the original manifold so I slid it inside. Don't try to remove the furnace braze fom the end castings, Ive tried it and you will bugger them up. Just cut them flush and butt weld. Yea, there will be some spatter but it does work.

tencentlife wrote: I see you modified the water pump inlet pipe. Isn't that thing a bitch? It's so hard to get the exhaust runners away from both rear cylinders what with that thing and the motor support and beam in the way. I'm always tempted to reposition the pipe on mine too, but I'm designing my exhausts to be duplicated for other people so I need to make them fit stock setups. Doing a one-off gives you a lot more freedom. Did you just use the stock unmodified tstat housing/manifold on #3, or did you mod that too?
If you notice I got rid of the original steel coolent pipe and used one of the 2 hoses from a 1.9 cooling system. This IS a 2.1 engine and I am using the original T-stat housing I made the adapters from stainless- the flange with T at the waterpump and inline T for the heater hose near the T-stat housing.

tencentlife wrote: I love the rocker oilers; I may borrow that. I've been thinking a lot about direct oiling the whole top end there. Drilled rocker shafts, and oil lines going direct, maybe sprayer ports drilled right into the rocker hubs to squirt oil at the valve stem and spring. Then block the ends of the pushrods so they stay empty, cutting down on reciprocating weight.
I installed a pressure relief valve of 10psi so the pressure needs to be at least that before oil flows and I am adding restrictors so I don't fill the valve covers.

tencentlife wrote: Did you put in piston squirters, too?
No squirters, that would probably be a good idea, but I got rid of the oil Cooler/stabilizer and installed a large remote cooler w/thermostat above the transmission. I expect my Oil temps to be lower even eith the Turbo.
I may add a small cooler after the P/S scavenge pump so the returning oil isn't so hot.

tencentlife wrote: I'm wondering if the oil flow into and out of the turbine will be adequate to keep the PS pump from starving. Those pumps move a pretty high flow, and can't tolerate running dry. Maybe a bigger pulley on the pump if it's a problem. I don't know what kind of flow moves thru a turbine bearing.
I thought about this too, so I did an experiment with a container of oil and powered the pump with a high powered drill. I put my finger over the inlet and as the volume goes down so does the suction and it didn't make more noise like I expected. I can always add a low pressure bypass if the pump gets noisey.

tencentlife wrote: Here's an idea: take the output from the PS pump, run it thru a cooler, and route to your top end oilers?
I thought about this too, but figured the cooler the oil from the sump would be a better source.
Thanks for your comments. I will share what I learn on this project, I'm sure there will be some changes alon the way.

Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:11 am

Hey, thanks for answering all my questions. But here's one more: is it a stock 2.1, with stock MV cam, or did you rework the guts? And what kind of boost is your target? (OK, that's two, sorry)

You've done some great work there. I'm eager to hear how that thing gits up and goes!!

Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:56 am

Yes it's a stock MV engine with early style rod bolts.
The cam is the CB 2254 along with the 1.4 rockers. The only concern I have is the overlap, 112*LC would have been preferred but I don't plan on High boost. Between 7 and 10lbs depending on temps. I will likely intercool it after and compare notes.
I did some head work such as sinking the valves, seating tward the edges, blending the ports and chambers, machiening the spring seats for Type1 HD short outer springs checking coil bind and geometry. I rough ported the intake ports and polished the exhaust ports.
I milled 1 mm off the flat of the heads and removed the head gaskets (sounds risky) to use Brazillian P&Cs. I have done this before, after all, T1s have done this for years with much less stable temps.
The rockers and head shim removal required removing about 1/4 inch from the stock push rods in my lathe. The ID needs to be drilled/reamed for the tips (dam they're thick and heavy).

Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:49 pm

Nioce Joe! Great looking work, I should buzz down and help you fine tune this with an afterburnerbrew as soon as the weather shapes up.

[note: this is what beautiful schtuff happens when most Vermonters are kept all locked up in the winter - next he'll have it maple syrup injected]

Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:23 pm

TSR53 wrote: Nioce Joe! Great looking work, I should buzz down and help you fine tune this with an afterburnerbrew as soon as the weather shapes up.

[note: this is what beautiful schtuff happens when most Vermonters are kept all locked up in the winter - next he'll have it maple syrup injected]
Thanks! I see you're way up there. Yea, once the weather breaks :(.
I'll be putting it in tomorrow but there is still a lot of little and big details to take care of like exhaust after turbo and air intake plumbing, in line fan switch for oil cooler fan, throttle linkage, wastegate actuator mounting (clearance), small oil cooler for oil return from turbo, ect...
It's all the little details that determines reliability and I'm in no hurry to burn rubber in the snow :roll: :) .
If maple syrup can be made onto mooshine I'll inject it! :lol:

Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:58 pm

Quote: The cam is the CB 2254 along with the 1.4 rockers. The only concern I have is the overlap, 112*LC would have been preferred but I don't plan on High boost.

I have the 2254 in my NA 2.2, 9.7 CR. It's got way too much overlap. LCA is only 107. I think the power curve on this cam is higher than these engines can even rev with stock FI. You won't have that limit, could go to 6500 safely, maybe it'll come into its own up there. Trying to get it to breath better on that much overlap is what started my whole adventures in exhaust building. I'll probably end up sticking an MV cam back in; that'll raise the CR some but I can afford it at my altitude.

Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:11 pm

Well It's about time for an update. :oops: lots of news, Good news and bad news. I will post some pics tomarrow.
The engine is in and running and It's tuned ok but will get fine tuning later.
The PS scavange pump did not work, It would lose it's prime and fog the neighborhood through the turbo seals.
I came up with an idea to build an electric scavenge pump, revised it a few times and learned a lot. End play (or the lack of) is critical to suction, much more so than I could have ever imagined.
Gears work best for suction so I sealed and blueprinted a 26mm pump and attached it to a vanagon cooling fan motor. It actually worked too well as it would suck 1 qt in 3 seconds while drawing 30 amps!
I later realized the amps go down as the oil heats up :oops:
My second attept was to use the second stage of a semi auto pump This seemed to work initially but is just able to keep up with demand and then not intermitently. :roll: My next one will be a good 1500 pump I have sealed and converted. If this sounds hokey to you I will show you a picture - it is not, I wouldn't chance it if there was any question. the pump is quiet and doesn't leak a drop. Yes, I am being cheap and didn't expect to buy a $300 pump. If I had to do it over I would have mounted the turbo higher.
Roadtest:
Cammy idle, sorta pro-turbo bug but not that bad. Decent low-end torque. not as snappy at tip in of a stock vanagon but easy to drive slow. So far the wastegate actuator I installed only allows 4 lbs of boost, I'm not even sure what it came from.
I have to say I'm impressed because even at this low boost it zings through the gears and soon your looking for 5th. the power band is smooth with torque everywhere and it builds boost fast.
Now the bad news.
At first start up it was the quietest engine I have built - NO hydralic valve clatter. But the next day I noticed what sounds like piston slap when cold and it seemed to go away when warm. Oil pressure is great and lights out instantly.
Well the noise after the test drive is still there. It sounds like a piston installed backwards or wristpin knock and I determined it's on # 1 cylinder when pulling the wire , It goes away. I was careful to install pistons with the arrows foreward.
Not taking any chances I am sending a set of rods out for rebuild, ordering another set of P/Cs and a gasket set as soon as I get some money :cry:
So, I'm putting it aside for a little while in the meantime.
While I ponder what 8 lbs of boost will be like! :twisted:

Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:18 pm

This is going to be good !

I like the dump pipe Sans muffler!

Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:29 pm

please post a video of that beast running! i'd love to see and hear what a waterboxer sounds like turbo-charged. i'm also a big fan of mb diesels so i like the sound of a turbo spooling.

-Matt

Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:54 am

I know that the TD/TDI crowd often uses a Holley RED low pressure fuel pump to scavange the turbo oil on low mounted arrangements.

though they are $150.. but last a long time compared to low buck scavanger pumps. even with HOT oil..

good luck, and keep us posted.

Dan

Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:15 am

Sorry to hear of the oil drainage complication. It was the first thought I had when I saw your mounting. Could you add a bolt on elbow to your header and mount the turbo up higher? Gravity flow drains are quite simple. Would need to heat shield items and modify whatever intake you've fabbed but that seems simple to me when contrasted to the R+D to get a pump to flow appropriately matched to the turbo oil output across the range of temperatures.

Andrew