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Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:45 am

I recently picked up a T4 engine that came out of a bus. It's a 1700 fuelie. I also have a 1600 T3 fuelie engine. Since I need to rebuild one of them and stick it in my Squareback, what would be the advantage of using the T4 ? I will be converting both to carb(s) and modification to get them to fit will have to be done on each. That said, what to do, what to do ?

Thanks

Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:04 am

What kind of vehicle is this going in? If its a Type 3, stick with the 1600.

Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:52 am

It's a type3 squareback. The 1600 will take some modification to wedge it in there too. It's a non-IRS motor going into an IRS body.

My basic question is: Is there any real advantage to the 1700 over the 1600, installation issues aside ?

Thanks

Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:18 am

well if it's a 1600 really all you have to do is convert it from upright to Type 3 cooling. Unless you dont have the cooling pieces.

The 1700's disadvantages of fit far outweigh any advantages you would gain in performance.

You are looking at maybe 10 more hp.

Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:13 am

After doing some research on the net, I found this info:

Unlike the Type 1, a Type 4 in stock form uses a conventional spin-on oil filter in addition to the oil strainer at the oil pickup tube in the oil sump.

The Type 4 also had a larger oil cooler, larger oil pump, dual relief case, "sand seal" (a seal at the end of the crank shaft where the fan/pulley mounts), larger flywheel/clutch with 5-bolt mounting, and increased oil capacity (3.5 liters versus 2.5 liters in the Type 1). The Type 4 also used an aluminum alloy in the case that made it stronger than the weaker magnesium alloy used in the Type 1 case. Everything about a Type 4 is just stronger.

Add to that, higher horsepower and more cooling fins on the heads, what's not to like ?

Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:20 am

have at it then, and enjoy trying to put a Type 4 in that car.

As stated earlier, trying to fit that engine in a type 3 far outweighs any advantages the Type 4 might have.

But it's your car and time, do what you like.

Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:24 am

If you want to run a T4 motor why not buy a 411 or 412? It would take less effort to rebuild the front end of a T4 than to wedge a T4 engine into a T3.

Thu May 01, 2008 5:34 am

So far, everything I read sounds pretty straight forward for putting a 1700 into my T-3. A bit of fabrication, but I'll have that with the 1600 anyway.

As for buying a 411 or 412, I've been looking for a reasonably priced squareback for a few years and finally found one, I don't want to wait that long again just to use the T-4 engine I have. Not that I'd pass one up if I find one.

Thu May 01, 2008 12:29 pm

not sure why everyone thinks that the work outweighs the advantages... a T4 fits inside a t3 bay almost as if it was meant to be there all along...

you'll need to fab some bracket adaptors to attach to the stock t3 ones, and although you strictly don't NEED frame horns, it doesn't hurt to install them for extra support.

you can use the stock t3 tranny, but you'll need a diff. clutch/flywheel. Go into the t3 forum and ask there, as a bunch of guys have done it.

Fri May 02, 2008 6:20 am

The Type 3 engine bolts in with 4 bolts. No modifications!

Fri May 02, 2008 9:47 am

Mike Fisher wrote: The Type 3 engine bolts in with 4 bolts. No modifications!

but he already has the t4 engine... and the FI... it has more power, more room to move upward, and it already has an alternator...

whats not to like?! :D

Fri May 02, 2008 12:04 pm

I guess we are being stock Nazis :? Seriously if thats what you want to do, go for it!! 8)

Fri May 02, 2008 2:25 pm

DeathBus wrote: I guess we are being stock Nazis :? Seriously if thats what you want to do, go for it!! 8)

don't get me wrong... I'll be the first to call myself a purist and a stock nazi. but this conversion is one of the very few that makes sense to me. its reversible, doesn't require hacking of the car, fits like a glove, still ACVW, the list goes on. If i had a complete t4 engine sitting around, I'd do it in a heartbeat, no questions asked.

Fri May 02, 2008 2:32 pm

I would be more prone to do it with a 1.8 than a 1.7, if you could find a 1.8 litre AW engine, that would be the one to go for, close to 80 hp on that engine, it would make a Type 3 scoot. 8)

Sat May 03, 2008 3:56 am

What nobody seems to realise is that the 1600 will need modification to wedge it in as well. Biggest drawback is that it doesn't have mounting bosses for the engine mount. Swingaxle engine going onto an IRS tranny. I'll either have to fab up a way to mount it or ( shudder ) use an adapter that bolts to the oil pump. Not to mention the motor has 68 FI parts and the car has 73, matching them up will be fun. I'll probably end up with both of them in there at some time or another anyway. If this was a rare car, I might lean more towards being a purist, but it's a 73, the original motor is long gone, but at least the body is in reasonable shape. Being a pack rat, I couldn't pass up a complete 1700 for 100 bucks.

Keep throwing ideas out, I've been out of the VW game for over 20 years, gotta relearn a lot of stuff.

Mon May 05, 2008 6:18 am

If your going to do a T4 engine conversion to T3 car this probably the wrong forum.

Look at:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=1

Or Jake Rabys forums.
http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/

Many have done this the torque increase is the main reason.
It is very doable and worth the effort to many.
Use the crank and rods from a 75-79 bus, flycut your heads use 94mm PC set and you have the stock 2 liter. 96mm slip in PCs are also available so 2056 is easy.

A good start is to read this.
http://www.tunacan.net/t4/

Mon May 05, 2008 3:15 pm

Square73 wrote: What nobody seems to realise is that the 1600 will need modification to wedge it in as well. Biggest drawback is that it doesn't have mounting bosses for the engine mount. Swingaxle engine going onto an IRS tranny. I'll either have to fab up a way to mount it or ( shudder ) use an adapter that bolts to the oil pump. Not to mention the motor has 68 FI parts and the car has 73, matching them up will be fun. I'll probably end up with both of them in there at some time or another anyway. If this was a rare car, I might lean more towards being a purist, but it's a 73, the original motor is long gone, but at least the body is in reasonable shape. Being a pack rat, I couldn't pass up a complete 1700 for 100 bucks.

Keep throwing ideas out, I've been out of the VW game for over 20 years, gotta relearn a lot of stuff.

i really think you should go with the t4 in your case, the fab work for the 1600 is going to end up being more labor intensive than the t4, and you'll get more power out of the t4. furthermore, you can't, simply can't, mix 68 and 73 FI stuff. it just won't work.

Fri May 23, 2008 5:11 am

It's like Mike Fisher said, the type 3 will bolt in, NO PROBLEM! Why are you trying to make a mountain out of a molehill?

Fri May 23, 2008 5:59 am

If I was on a budget I'd build a 1776cc T3 w/stock cam/stock FI.

Fri May 23, 2008 9:57 am

If a Type 4 was meant to be put in a Type 3, the factory would have done it.

Build a stock 1600 correctly and balance it right, and you'll be surprised how much power it really has.

Besides, T3s don't scatter valve seats like T4s.