TheSamba.com :: View topic - Why you should overhaul rather than replace....

Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:19 pm

We've all seen the ads for the "universal reconditioned" long blocks dirt cheap in the catalogues and online. Makes you wonder why you should go through all the expense and tedious work of overhauling when you can just pop another "reconditioned" engine in, right?

PLEASE... think again.

A buddy of mine has a new- to- him 71 Superbeetle Convertible, and pulled the engine out to replace a bunch of stuff in the engine compartment, and clean/ paint exhaust, heaterboxes, etc.

I told him I'd give him a hand with it in exchange for some general cleanup, some drywalling, and a bunch of other stuff I haven't had time to get to.

Got everything apart, bead blasted, painted, etc. and i was going to freshen up the longblock case with some Wuerth Alloy paint, and get ready to reassemble everything.

He mentioned he had a slight oil leak. Well, the left hearer box was pretty caked, so I assumed valvecover, as the engine is new- He's put about 100 miles on it since the guy he bought the car from installed it a year ago.

Got to looking at it, and noticed that one of the pushrod tube seals was shredded for no apparent reason. No problem, just pull the head and deal with it, right?

Well, half the studs started coming out with the nuts, which is no big deal- except one of the CASE SAVERS is coming with the stud! :shock:

I'm getting a bad feeling about this.

Well, I got the head off and look at the combustion chamber- CRACKED between the plug hole and the exhaust valve on one cylinder. Oh, crap.

So, I pulled the other side down. Same thing! TWO cracked heads on a 100 mile engine!

But wait- There's more!

I'm noticing a strange seizing/ wear pattern on #3 cylinder. I pull off the cylinder, and one of the wrist pin clips is GONE- the wrist pin is riding the cylinder.

So, I pull the engine apart down to the short block. After removing the wrist pin clips, I find I can push out the wrist pins with my finger! WTF???

So, now I'm down to the shortblock. I take a wrist pin and try it on ALL FOUR rods. This thing has side play in the wrist pin bushings like a mofo. I grab a set of new Mahle pistons from my parts stash and try a NEW wrist pin- Same thing.

Then, I notice the side play of the rods on the crankshaft. I can fit an .006# feeler gauge in between the rod and the crank throw on the rod with the LEAST play!
:shock:

BUT WAIT- THERE'S MORE! :lol:

The driver's side case half is a 311, the passenger case half is a.... wait for it.... 211! :lol:

Jumpin' Jesus (pronounced Hey Seuss) on a pogo stick!

OVERHAUL YOUR OWN STUFF, PEOPLE!!! Keep as much ORIGINAL GERMAN as you can, even if it's used! Who the hell is building this crap, Al Qaeda? Whether it's Al or his brother Bill...

I mean, come ON!!

PLEASE do NOT buy the cheapest stuff you can buy in a catalogue, EVER!!!

Can you hear me now?

Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:27 pm

GEX per chance?

Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:35 pm

vwfye wrote: GEX per chance?

Nope!

Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:32 am

well, I feel better about the slightly used pistons I bought now. :D

Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:07 am

ok here a story about a local so called engine builder .... and this just took place....this winter..

I didn't have the time,, on top of the fact,, that this friend of mine blows engines,, whether it's a Chevy Dodge or a vw he will kill it..
I've already supplied him with a 1835,, as told they do like running without fan belts.. well not for long anyway..

I send him to a guy I know very well.. that guy tells him $1000 .. right off the top.. I told him the same thing .. oh to much money..

so he get wind of a guy in Eugene that sell long blocks for $800 on a stock build...ok .. $ 850 with a 110 cam ,,, he buys that.. I help him install... first start up oil dumping out a push rod tube on my FLOOR !!! and it sure looked like my old 10 lb flywheel on it ...

The 1835 was very low hours.. I say hours cause these are sandrails.. I tell him call the guy about the leak that's bullshit ... no call

about two months later that engine sounds like a rod is going..he might have 100 miles on it,, so he takes it out.. and back to the builder

$245 later he has the motor back,, that's right this guy charged him..

get this,, charged him to pull one head and replace tube seals, .. the knocking was a loose flywheel.. why,, cause it was my flywheel ..( 8 doweled ) which the builder had put on a 4 dowel crank

Chit you wonder why it came loose ??? ...so he gets charged for 8 doweling the crank and 45 bucks for a used flywheel..

he now has over that 1000 mark in this motor ... the upside.. now the motor runs nice and smooth.... since it has a flywheel thats balanced for a stock crank and not one balanced off a welded counter weighted crank .. LOL

ya just gotta love some of these self acclaimed VW engine builders..

oh did I say the dizzy drive is in so that#1 is looking at the oil pressure switch ..

Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:32 am

towd wrote: ok here a story about a local so called engine builder .... and this just took place....this winter..

I didn't have the time,, on top of the fact,, that this friend of mine blows engines,, whether it's a Chevy Dodge or a vw he will kill it..
I've already supplied him with a 1835,, as told they do like running without fan belts.. well not for long anyway..

I send him to a guy I know very well.. that guy tells him $1000 .. right off the top.. I told him the same thing .. oh to much money..

so he get wind of a guy in Eugene that sell long blocks for $800 on a stock build...ok .. $ 850 with a 110 cam ,,, he buys that.. I help him install... first start up oil dumping out a push rod tube on my FLOOR !!! and it sure looked like my old 10 lb flywheel on it ...

The 1835 was very low hours.. I say hours cause these are sandrails.. I tell him call the guy about the leak that's bullshit ... no call

about two months later that engine sounds like a rod is going..he might have 100 miles on it,, so he takes it out.. and back to the builder

$245 later he has the motor back,, that's right this guy charged him..

get this,, charged him to pull one head and replace tube seals, .. the knocking was a loose flywheel.. why,, cause it was my flywheel ..( 8 doweled ) which the builder had put on a 4 dowel crank

Chit you wonder why it came loose ??? ...so he gets charged for 8 doweling the crank and 45 bucks for a used flywheel..

he now has over that 1000 mark in this motor ... the upside.. now the motor runs nice and smooth.... since it has a flywheel thats balanced for a stock crank and not one balanced off a welded counter weighted crank .. LOL

ya just gotta love some of these self acclaimed VW engine builders..

oh did I say the dizzy drive is in so that#1 is looking at the oil pressure switch ..

Who is this builder? you can PM me if you want. Just curious as I'm in Springfield.

Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:29 pm

I had the same problems back in the late 80's. I bought a stock 1600 duel port long block to replace the stock single port in my 66 squareback. I did not do my own engine work at the time and this is what started it all. The rebuilt motor was $600 the install was $400 with other work done. After about 3 months of driving the motor started sounding like the fan was grinding and the oil pressure light came on at idle. So I put the stronger springs in ( not a good fix but I was young) and replaced the fan but the same sound. I called the builder and told them they had asked if the motor had stopped? I had told them it was steal running they basically said don't bother us till it is to late. So a short time later I had a job at the place I had bought it from (Bill and Steve's in bellflower at the time) They were not the builders. Then I called the company back told them where I work and they said bring it in. So I pulled the motor and stuffed it into my girlfriend Karmann Ghia ( a job in it self) and took it to them. They said the cam gear came loose and replaced it. I had put the motor back in and the heads we not torqued down and the oil pressure was steal low at idle. The car was sent to Japan shortly after that.

I have also ran across two different case haves on a friend bug 20 years ago that we had to replace. I don't know what some people think besides it will get the problem out of there driveway.

This is why I build my motors.

Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:55 pm

yes I've had some of the VW greats tell me they switch case half's ALL the time ...... OK. :idea:

On GEX ,, a flipside to this... I have a friend that at the same time bought two long blocks from them... This way YEARS ago..he ran one in his bus.... and got well over 100,000 .. the 2nd one is today in his ghia that motor is now just over 130,000 ..
now this guy doesn't know shit about a vw and has had them since the 70's ...he's install motors,, even rebuilt one so on ect ect .. but he couldn't tell you when or why there's spark at the plug

set the valves at 004.. use a 009 and a pict 34 and always get around 30 mpg with a top speed of ... 54 mph with a strong wind..

he's the guy that sold his near prefect 65 split riveria for $1000,, because it needed a brake drum, after owning it 25 + years

Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:20 pm

Hey, this brings up something I was wondering. I received a set of 1600cc Type 3 cylinders, and wonder if they are usable/fixable. A couple of the cylinders have one or two fins broken off, and all of them have a spot of rust on the side wall (like a sitting engine). So, how do you tell if old engine parts are trash and what one should save?

Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:31 pm

architect_7 wrote: Hey, this brings up something I was wondering. I received a set of 1600cc Type 3 cylinders, and wonder if they are usable/fixable. A couple of the cylinders have one or two fins broken off, and all of them have a spot of rust on the side wall (like a sitting engine). So, how do you tell if old engine parts are trash and what one should save?

What makes a cylinder a Type 3 cylinder?

Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:45 pm

KTPhil wrote: architect_7 wrote: Hey, this brings up something I was wondering. I received a set of 1600cc Type 3 cylinders, and wonder if they are usable/fixable. A couple of the cylinders have one or two fins broken off, and all of them have a spot of rust on the side wall (like a sitting engine). So, how do you tell if old engine parts are trash and what one should save?

What makes a cylinder a Type 3 cylinder?

The PN at the bottom :-k

I think everyone should rebuild their own motor. Its the only way half you cheap asses will stay in budget anyway :lol:

If not then poney up for a good builder after you research it :!:

Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:42 pm

As the “buddy” referred to in the original post, I, too am frustrated with the motor that came with the car. Let me say first a big THANK YOU to Tram for even taking on this project in the first place. I have a feeling that instead of “general cleanup, some drywalling, and a bunch of other stuff I haven't had time to get to” I will be remodeling his house or something like that!

The long block was “reconditioned” at Autocraft, Inc. in Salem, Oregon on 1-31-07. Right after that, the car was taken to the paint booth and painted. It sat in the PO's garage for a few months with no trim or interior (and thus no miles) until I traded my sand rail for it. Anyway, I put the trim on, interior and windshield in…odds and ends. But the top was not installed so I could not drive it all that much in the winter here in Oregon. I told Tram that I put less than 100 miles on the motor and am pretty sure that is correct. I took one trip to the other side of Eugene to get some welding done, once to Ben Gouse’s, once to Thurston, and twice to Tram’s. Never ran very well and I couldn’t figure out why. Now we know!!

The motor does have a “limited 3 month/3000 mile warranty”…but since it was “reconditioned” a year and a half ago, I am sure there is no recourse for this motor. Also, the long block was not sold to me.

This was supposed to be a “week or so” project that has turned into a “month or so” so far due to the problems with this motor. Probably not worth the money saved, was it?

Thank you, Tram for your graciousness regarding my motor and working with me on this.

Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:45 pm

KTPhil wrote: architect_7 wrote: Hey, this brings up something I was wondering. I received a set of 1600cc Type 3 cylinders, and wonder if they are usable/fixable. A couple of the cylinders have one or two fins broken off, and all of them have a spot of rust on the side wall (like a sitting engine). So, how do you tell if old engine parts are trash and what one should save?

What makes a cylinder a Type 3 cylinder?

Part number 341 101 302.

Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:03 pm

ARIZONA AIRCOOLED was renamed after moving to Arizona from Oregon.

Ya, another self proclaimed engine builder, No jimmy, no lube didn't even spit to make it feel better just screwed ya and left ya hanging wondering if you were ever going to get a call or letter.

Bought a long block for a bay window bus ( hey, you in the back keep it down ) installed in my new to me (new to type 4 motors) fat chick. tried to turn it over and the battery died. Humm... dead battery, ok charge for a few hours. Good to go hook it up turn the key turns ok for few seconds then dead. ????? bad battery..... new battery put it in turn it over turns fine for a few seconds then dead. Ok WTF. tried to turn it over by hand 15 degrees out of 360 super tight. Call the guy up, tell him whats up. He puts a wrench on it says I got fuel in my oil ( ??? WHAT) says he's got an idea. He'll tow me down the road when I get to 25-30 mph dump the clutch and get it running. I say how bout I take it out and give it back to you. he agrees. I take it out, take it back charges me 100.00 for the gasket kit, and 50.00 for his labor to come to my house and look at it.

Now I have built my own 1800 driven to the top of Arizona and towards the bottom of Mexico all thanks to John Muir and his Idiots guide. One thing my dad allways told me about cars: " Ryan nobody will do as good a job as you will do because nobodys cares about it as much as you do" and he was right. Nobody cares like you do, so just do it yourself and even if your unsure about it there is allways someone out there in the VW community willing to help out.

Who is more stupid- Me for not turning it over before I put it in, Me for buying it. Or him for attempting to fix the problem by dumping the clutch to get it running.

Don't answer that-

Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:46 pm

Tram wrote: We've all seen the ads for the "universal reconditioned" long blocks dirt cheap in the catalogues and online. Makes you wonder why you should go through all the expense and tedious work of overhauling when you can just pop another "reconditioned" engine in, right?

PLEASE... think again.

A buddy of mine has a new- to- him 71 Superbeetle Convertible, and pulled the engine out to replace a bunch of stuff in the engine compartment, and clean/ paint exhaust, heaterboxes, etc.

I told him I'd give him a hand with it in exchange for some general cleanup, some drywalling, and a bunch of other stuff I haven't had time to get to.

Got everything apart, bead blasted, painted, etc. and i was going to freshen up the longblock case with some Wuerth Alloy paint, and get ready to reassemble everything.

He mentioned he had a slight oil leak. Well, the left hearer box was pretty caked, so I assumed valvecover, as the engine is new- He's put about 100 miles on it since the guy he bought the car from installed it a year ago.

Got to looking at it, and noticed that one of the pushrod tube seals was shredded for no apparent reason. No problem, just pull the head and deal with it, right?

Well, half the studs started coming out with the nuts, which is no big deal- except one of the CASE SAVERS is coming with the stud! :shock:

I'm getting a bad feeling about this.

Well, I got the head off and look at the combustion chamber- CRACKED between the plug hole and the exhaust valve on one cylinder. Oh, crap.

So, I pulled the other side down. Same thing! TWO cracked heads on a 100 mile engine!

But wait- There's more!

I'm noticing a strange seizing/ wear pattern on #3 cylinder. I pull off the cylinder, and one of the wrist pin clips is GONE- the wrist pin is riding the cylinder.

So, I pull the engine apart down to the short block. After removing the wrist pin clips, I find I can push out the wrist pins with my finger! WTF???

So, now I'm down to the shortblock. I take a wrist pin and try it on ALL FOUR rods. This thing has side play in the wrist pin bushings like a mofo. I grab a set of new Mahle pistons from my parts stash and try a NEW wrist pin- Same thing.

Then, I notice the side play of the rods on the crankshaft. I can fit an .006# feeler gauge in between the rod and the crank throw on the rod with the LEAST play!
:shock:

BUT WAIT- THERE'S MORE! :lol:

The driver's side case half is a 311, the passenger case half is a.... wait for it.... 211! :lol:

Jumpin' Jesus (pronounced Hey Seuss) on a pogo stick!

OVERHAUL YOUR OWN STUFF, PEOPLE!!! Keep as much ORIGINAL GERMAN as you can, even if it's used! Who the hell is building this crap, Al Qaeda? Whether it's Al or his brother Bill...

I mean, come ON!!

PLEASE do NOT buy the cheapest stuff you can buy in a catalogue, EVER!!!

Can you hear me now?

Quote: The driver's side case half is a 311, the passenger case half is a.... wait for it.... 211!

I dont think I have ever heard of that before holy shit.

Quote:
Jumpin' Jesus (pronounced Hey Seuss) on a pogo stick!

Thats funny I gotta use that one.

Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:43 pm

With a T2 rt side case then the oil filler is all wrong and has a dip stick too :?:

Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:55 pm

notchboy wrote: With a T2 rt side case then the oil filler is all wrong and has a dip stick too :?:

It's a "universal" and so is set up to fit any model. It has the T3 oil fill cut in and studs installed, but blanked off.

I just can't believe they mated two different cases. At least they're both AS-41s. :roll:

Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:59 pm

I agree with Tram that buying a rebuilt engine is better and cheaper to say the least. However, a vee-dub enthusiast (although not compulsory), must wreck, build, wreck and fix some engines for him to finally realize the simple yet complex design of a vw engine.

When I was younger (and I am still LOL), I used to fix my own vws, due to the fact that I told myself I had to know how to fix them. But things changed now, due to my hectic schedules, I would have my vee-dubs fixed for me to save more time (not money) and earn a living. But, of course, no one can prevent me from time to time fixing my vee-dubs, expecially Sharky 2, every now and then.

Afterall, that is part of the hobby! :wink:

Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:01 pm

And people wonder why the good builder charge so much.
It is because they do it right the first time.
And the poor builder don't give a shit. You are never coming back anyway.

Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:08 pm

Tram I appreciate you passing along this story. I debated a while comparing the cost of a rebuild to one of those drop in engines and decided to go with a rebuild of my original case. I had wondered if I had made a mistake as I got into buying quality parts to go back in the tab was climbing. After this story I am glad I went with the rebuild. Russ W rebuilt my heads and I have a good VW mechanic here in Chattanooga doing the rebuild. I was able to get a pair of NOS heater boxes a intake manifold that is in very good condition and the rest of my parts were good. I am going to feel a lot more confident when I take it out on a long drive.