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Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:03 pm

Doka70 wrote: It's sad that none of these new 'green cars' can beat a 20-30 year old diesel MK1 for MPG.

Huh? You think it's sad that a dirty polluting old diesel isn't beat in mpg by a new car? So what? I like to breathe, too, don't you?! ;-)

Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:20 pm

I don't know what their top speed is or how well they do mileage while at top speed but last weekend one kept passing us in the fast lane on the highway and we were doing 110 kms/hr!

Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:37 pm

Patty B. wrote: I don't know what their top speed is or how well they do mileage while at top speed but last weekend one kept passing us in the fast lane on the highway and we were doing 110 kms/hr!

US models are speed-limited to 90MPH.

Now, whether the engine can actually propel it to that speed on a flat road remains to be seen.

Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:56 pm

KTPhil wrote: That's a little overstated to say there is a "free energy" store used to cheat the EPA tests. In fact, the gas engine will recharge the battery as needed, and whether there is more or less in the battery after the EPA test varies and is not always in the car's favor for the tests.

Yes, that's why the mileage values for the identical Prius dropped from 60MPG to 48MPG when tested by the new EPA test that takes into account the energy-storage capability, a greater percentage drop than most other vehicles... :roll:

Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:35 pm

I have a 1958 Cushman Truckster that gets about 75 miles per gal. It's has the 1958 yellow Calif. plates, so it's street legal. I can not tell a lie. I have 4 Truckster.

Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:49 pm

GeorgeL wrote:
US models are speed-limited to 90MPH.

Now, whether the engine can actually propel it to that speed on a flat road remains to be seen.

Mine can :D

Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:51 pm

coad wrote: GeorgeL wrote:
US models are speed-limited to 90MPH.

Now, whether the engine can actually propel it to that speed on a flat road remains to be seen.

Mine can :D

Steve Wozniak got pulled over doing 104 in his Prius driving down I-5 to LA.

Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:10 pm

GeorgeL wrote: US models are speed-limited to 90MPH.

Now, whether the engine can actually propel it to that speed on a flat road remains to be seen.

Yes, actually the limit is a bit above 100mph.

And it will hit that. I take the 5th if you ask me how I know.

Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:14 pm

GeorgeL wrote: Yes, that's why the mileage values for the identical Prius dropped from 60MPG to 48MPG when tested by the new EPA test that takes into account the energy-storage capability, a greater percentage drop than most other vehicles... :roll:

Time to call bullshit after your third "forget actual facts, I'll just make shit up." It dropped because the EPA changed the test process, including accounting for "high speed, aggressive driving, use of air conditioning, and cold temperature operation" (quote from the EPA website). Nothing about battery charging.

Jealousy ain't pretty.

Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:55 pm

KTPhil wrote: GeorgeL wrote: Yes, that's why the mileage values for the identical Prius dropped from 60MPG to 48MPG when tested by the new EPA test that takes into account the energy-storage capability, a greater percentage drop than most other vehicles... :roll:

Time to call bullshit after your third "forget actual facts, I'll just make shit up." It dropped because the EPA changed the test process, including accounting for "high speed, aggressive driving, use of air conditioning, and cold temperature operation" (quote from the EPA website). Nothing about battery charging.

Jealousy ain't pretty.

Neither is blind adoration! :)

What you overlooked is that the new tests also include increased _braking_ rates that cause the Prius to use its friction brakes to a greater extent, just as it has to in the real world. The engine then has to burn more gas to make up for the energy lost.

You also overlooked the fact that, under the new rules, hybrids overall experienced a larger percentage decrease in their mileage figures than conventional vehicles. If the earlier test didn't favor the electrical energy storage capability of the hybrid then what is the explanation for this discrepancy?

Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:02 pm

KTPhil wrote: GeorgeL wrote: US models are speed-limited to 90MPH.

Now, whether the engine can actually propel it to that speed on a flat road remains to be seen.

Yes, actually the limit is a bit above 100mph.

And it will hit that. I take the 5th if you ask me how I know.

I was referring to the Smart, not the Prius. The 90MPH figure is from the Smart web site.

A friend claims that he had his Prius up to 108. Even assuming an optimistic speedometer I don't doubt that it'll do the ton.

Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:37 pm

I think we'll see real 'high MPG' cars within the next 5 years. Not just the pu$$y foot attempts they've done so far. With gas as high as it is right now, you know all the auto makers are pushing thier designers for products that will get the 'best' mileage to beat out the competition. Just as an example, Chevy has dropped all developement on their trucks and SUV's and are focusing on high MPG vehicle development right now. Any auto manufacturer that doesn't will be left in the dust.

Necesity is the mother of all inventions. It will be interesting to see what 'comes up' in the next few years.

For now, my wifes 03 Accord EX/MT does just fine. 45 mpg @ 60mph, and 41 mpg @ 65mph. 30-31 mpg city traffic is the norm. Plus it's got 240 horsepower and will pull a 14 flat in the quarter mile. Little sacrafice for the ammount of performance it offers. I like it quite a lot! Only problem is with it's six-speed trans, I space out and forget what gear i'm in sometimes, lol.

Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:51 am

Eaallred wrote: I think we'll see real 'high MPG' cars within the next 5 years. Not just the pu$$y foot attempts they've done so far. With gas as high as it is right now, you know all the auto makers are pushing thier designers for products that will get the 'best' mileage to beat out the competition. Just as an example, Chevy has dropped all developement on their trucks and SUV's and are focusing on high MPG vehicle development right now. Any auto manufacturer that doesn't will be left in the dust.

And that's what's going to kill hybrids.

It's going to happen just like it did with Diesels. Mercedes, VW, and a few others built good, reliable diesel cars forever, and then in 73 when the first oil crisis hit, here comes Detroit with their half-assed POS diesels they threw together to make sales, and *bang* all of a sudden diesels got a bad reputation cause Grandma's Buick diesel wouldn't run right.

I mean, look at the hybrids everyone is coming out with. Hybrid SUV's? Give me a break. Grandpa will buy a hybrid Ford Expedition, toss a trailer hitch on it and try towing his pontoon boat 1000 miles. Then he'll bitch and moan cause he didn't get the mileage they claimed, and 6 months later he'll wonder why the motor burned up. In 3 years everyone will be telling horror stories about their lousy GM hybrid and saying they'll never buy another one, and it will give all hybrids, even the good ones, a reputation they'll never recover from.

I've had my Prius for 3 years, and I can honestly say that when the time comes to trade, the only car I'll even look at will be another Prius. And not because of the hybrid stuff, you stop paying attention to that after the first two weeks. It's just a nice little car that's fun to drive, has a lot of neat features, and hasn't had a single repair in 3 years.

Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:14 pm

smart car gets 33mpg?
i get 30 with my "new" 89 Nissan
cost me a whopping 500 bucks and the AC works

Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:28 pm

GeorgeL wrote: What you overlooked is that the new tests also include increased _braking_ rates that cause the Prius to use its friction brakes to a greater extent, just as it has to in the real world. The engine then has to burn more gas to make up for the energy lost.

More new made up $hit.

The Prius, unless you really stomp the pedal does not use its friction brakes until you are under 9mph. Drivers with instrumentation on their cars showing charge/discharge current and brake actuation (those are electronically, not mechanically controlled brakes so this is definitive as to actual brake application) have verified the great pedal pressure needed to use the brakes.

More evidence: I have over 70K miles including stop and go and suburban driving (both heavy braking scenarios), and at the last check I have 95% of the pad left. So there is very little friction braking, instead the car uses the motor as a generator and recovers approximately 50-60% of the energy into the battery.

Actually a cycle with more braking would charge the battery MORE, not less. And you claimed the reason for the higher "old EPA test" mileage was the depletion of an originally fully-charged battery.

So lets just stop pretending you know the first thing about the Prius and move on, shall we?

Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:33 pm

KTPhil wrote: GeorgeL wrote: What you overlooked is that the new tests also include increased _braking_ rates that cause the Prius to use its friction brakes to a greater extent, just as it has to in the real world. The engine then has to burn more gas to make up for the energy lost.

More new made up $hit.

The Prius, unless you really stomp the pedal does not use its friction brakes until you are under 9mph. Drivers with instrumentation on their cars showing charge/discharge current and brake actuation (those are electronically, not mechanically controlled brakes so this is definitive as to actual brake application) have verified the great pedal pressure needed to use the brakes.

More evidence: I have over 70K miles including stop and go and suburban driving (both heavy braking scenarios), and at the last check I have 95% of the pad left. So there is very little friction braking, instead the car uses the motor as a generator and recovers approximately 50-60% of the energy into the battery.

Actually a cycle with more braking would charge the battery MORE, not less. And you claimed the reason for the higher "old EPA test" mileage was the depletion of an originally fully-charged battery.

So lets just stop pretending you know the first thing about the Prius and move on, shall we?

Wow, a True Believer :shock: even willing to ignore conservation of energy!

While you so eloquently accuse me of making "More new madeup $hit" you still have not explained why the percentage drops in hybrid EPA mileage under the new tests are so much _greater_ than the percentage drops of conventional cars.

The Prius EPA city rating dropped 25%
The Corolla EPA city rating dropped 14%

The Honda Civic hybrid rating dropped 23%
The Honda Civic conventional rating dropped 15%

This data is right from the official EPA site.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp

Now, the claim I often hear is that all small cars suffered greater drops in EPA mileage under the new test due to accessory loads, but the data clearly shows that even among similar cars from the same manufacturer the hybrids took a much greater hit. There was some characteristic of the hybrid vehicles that was causing the inflated mileage figures, and the experiences of owners showed that this characteristic didn't carry over into the real world.

It's pretty obvious why the EPA picked this point in time to make their tests more realistic. They were losing credibility among their biggest group of supporters!

VW had it right. They just stated a realistic number which turns out to be exactly what I get from my Bug, even 39 years down the road!

Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:49 pm

KTPhil wrote: Vintage Split wrote: Somethings wrong if there hasn't be much improvement (MPG wise) in 20 years.
1989 Honda CRX HF:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/5263.shtml

True enough, but emissions limits have made it harder to get that kind of mpg and still run clean.

Its not the emissions standards that lowered the MPGs, its the Americans way of bigger is better, and that includes their vehicles. The Honda CRX gets great gas mileage and has really good emission standards even to this day.

Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:28 pm

PZL66 wrote: KTPhil wrote: Vintage Split wrote: Somethings wrong if there hasn't be much improvement (MPG wise) in 20 years.
1989 Honda CRX HF:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/5263.shtml

True enough, but emissions limits have made it harder to get that kind of mpg and still run clean.

Its not the emissions standards that lowered the MPGs, its the Americans way of bigger is better, and that includes their vehicles. The Honda CRX gets great gas mileage and has really good emission standards even to this day.

In many ways, emission standard improved mileage, since burning fuel more completely reduced emissions. Closed loop EM systems improved both emissions and economy.

One thing that a lot of people overlook is that today's cars are a lot heavier than the cars of the past, particularly small cars. Even the fattest 1970s VW beetles weighed under 1800 pounds, while the contemporary Datsun 510 weighed 2000 pounds. Contrast this to modern subcompacts like the New Beetle and Mini, both at 2700 pounds, and the Scion xA and xB at about 2400 pounds. That's a lot of pork to accelerate, like having three 200 pound passengers permanently riding in your Beetle.

Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:40 pm

coad wrote: Eaallred wrote: I think we'll see real 'high MPG' cars within the next 5 years. Not just the pu$$y foot attempts they've done so far. With gas as high as it is right now, you know all the auto makers are pushing thier designers for products that will get the 'best' mileage to beat out the competition. Just as an example, Chevy has dropped all developement on their trucks and SUV's and are focusing on high MPG vehicle development right now. Any auto manufacturer that doesn't will be left in the dust.

And that's what's going to kill hybrids.

It's going to happen just like it did with Diesels. Mercedes, VW, and a few others built good, reliable diesel cars forever, and then in 73 when the first oil crisis hit, here comes Detroit with their half-assed POS diesels they threw together to make sales, and *bang* all of a sudden diesels got a bad reputation cause Grandma's Buick diesel wouldn't run right.

I mean, look at the hybrids everyone is coming out with. Hybrid SUV's? Give me a break. Grandpa will buy a hybrid Ford Expedition, toss a trailer hitch on it and try towing his pontoon boat 1000 miles. Then he'll bitch and moan cause he didn't get the mileage they claimed, and 6 months later he'll wonder why the motor burned up. In 3 years everyone will be telling horror stories about their lousy GM hybrid and saying they'll never buy another one, and it will give all hybrids, even the good ones, a reputation they'll never recover from.

I've had my Prius for 3 years, and I can honestly say that when the time comes to trade, the only car I'll even look at will be another Prius. And not because of the hybrid stuff, you stop paying attention to that after the first two weeks. It's just a nice little car that's fun to drive, has a lot of neat features, and hasn't had a single repair in 3 years.

The only higher mpg cars coming out in the next 5-10 years worth mentioning will be hybrids, they are here to stay for now. The Smart Car as it is isn't worthy of a mention here in the US unless we see it as a clean diesel.

As I see it any controversy behind what a hybrid is will come down to particular year/model hybrid vehicles that blew it for all kinds of reasons, just like we talk about cars of the past all the time that just didn't get it right. For now expect all the big car manufacturers and the weenies at the top will try and tap into hybrid branding power, package it up with all kinds vehicles they shouldn't even consider, for example don't think for a moment GM isn't considering making a Hummer hybrid, if it will make them sell more they will leverage the power of the hybrid moniker.

Nonetheless what a hybrid is now will be morph in the coming year yet again, so I don't expect to see hybrids get some kind of negative connotation attached to it. I see the word "hybrid" as a verb and not a noun. In 2010 the Prius will get a much bumped up mpg version and a slight body redesign, followed by yet another hybrid refinement as it becomes a plug-in hybrid yet bumping it the mpg yet again. So expect today's "hybrid synergy drive" to become another wordy subtitled thing like "hybrid electric drive", and so on, etc. etc. Eventually "hybrid" might even be dropped in the naming conventions just to save money on badging sizes.

Even the higher gas mpg cars like the Honda Fit that already gets close to 40mpg as is will be available as a hybrid next year, so many players and current models will be converted over steadily, not all will be winners though, but it all helps.

But expect to see more plug-in models sooner than later, battery technologies will be improving now that there is focus and attention on the weakest link here, won't come overnite but plug-in/gas hybrid models are the next stage, followed by pure electric models, and then possibly other variants. Don't expect hydrogen/gas hybrid models until 15+ years out if ever due to heavy technical/safety/distribution infrastructure deployment issues. Also don't overlook the fact that there will be dozens of other ways folks will change how they travel, motorcycles and scooters this year are available already as hybrids, and folks are riding more bicycles to and from work than ever.

Regardless, for now its encouraging to see quite a few of us right now are Prius owners, I expect many of us will continue to be early adopters of the newer vehicles coming out, passing the previous models on, and leading the way. Alot can happen between now and then globally between the mideast and other sandbox games but I believe we are living in and about to witness the most fascinating times ahead in terms of how we live, how we will be travelling about, and how much our lives will be changing hopefully and eventually for the better.

If you follow along the press releases from the major automakers you can see the product roadmap pretty clearly. There is also enough fossil fuel out there to last well enough to guide us through various energy and transportation transitions. For right now too the best way you can hedge your expenses against the oil traders/speculators is by owning a hybrid, and even though greed is driving up gas prices, counterintuitively it may be looked at 50 years into the future as the very one catalyst that saved ourselves from ourselves, only time will tell.

Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:17 am

I'm surprised nobody has really mentioned the TDI yet. Hell, i get about 48-50 MPG outta my Jetta, and thats driving at about 100-110 KPH. :D