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Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:50 pm

KTPhil wrote: RAMZROD wrote:

Smart car.

Stupid owner.

Stupid owner? Howso? It's a friggin shop vehicle. Lot's of European people have taken the oem motor and drive train out of the Smart car and put in a motorcycle engine. Such as this one. it's meant for play and demos. Not for daily economical driving.

Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:43 pm

KTPhil wrote: GeorgeL wrote: Regardless of the exact cause, the car was dead and experienced two weeks of downtime. It wasn't because the owner didn't understand the car. It was because the car malfunctioned.

Where did I say it was caused by the owner? I said the the problem can be wrongly identified by owners by attributing it to "stalling," when it was actually a "no restart" condition.

Where did I say he that he attributed it to "stalling"? He said that the car was dead, period. That's all the diagnosis he needs to make.

KTPhil wrote: GeorgeL wrote:
I've never heard of a similar problem in another car.

Using technology of this sort seems dangerous to everyone but Toyota, since all it takes is one little electronic "oops" by a dealer mechanic to change a customer's usable used car into one that is too expensive to fix. No evidence, either. :(

Actually, this is a real benefit to the owner. A field programmable ECU means upgrades or corrections can be made at the dealer, with only a labor expense to the customer. Instead, on other cars, module replacement (parts AND labor) is required. This is a feature that can lower life cycle ownership costs for the owner.

It was the poorly-trained mechanics early on that made the problem into a 2-week fix. Mine was reprogrammed in about an hour.

If they put the program on a removable ROM chip they could have reprogrammed it in about a minute, not an hour, with no danger of a mechanic screwing it up by following the wrong procedure. ROMs are cheap, particularly when the alternative is endangering a very expensive ECU at the hands of a random, possibly poorly-trained mechanic.

The days of every dealer mechanic being well-trained are long gone. All many of them know is "remove and replace" and any automotive design that does not recognize this fact is defective. Releasing unfinished and buggy software prematurely because it can be "easily fixed in the next service pack" and then calling this practice "a benefit to the owner" is how Microsoft achieved its sterling :roll: reputation among its customers. This approach shouldn't be emulated by auto manufacturers, particularly when customer lives are at stake.

From the sound of your statements, you work for Toyota, right?

Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:54 pm

mustard_madman wrote: Stupid owner? Howso? It's a friggin shop vehicle. Lot's of European people have taken the oem motor and drive train out of the Smart car and put in a motorcycle engine. Such as this one. it's meant for play and demos. Not for daily economical driving.

I'd roll it, though not so recklessly! :)

Here's a Hayabusa-powered RWD Golf:

Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:28 pm

GeorgeL wrote: mustard_madman wrote: Stupid owner? Howso? It's a friggin shop vehicle. Lot's of European people have taken the oem motor and drive train out of the Smart car and put in a motorcycle engine. Such as this one. it's meant for play and demos. Not for daily economical driving.

I'd roll it, though not so recklessly! :)

Here's a Hayabusa-powered RWD Golf:

Here is more:

Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:48 pm

Although I like quick cars, I could never see the point in spinning in circles and converting tires into smoke for minutes on end. It's be more fun to take that thing out on the streets and annoy the muscle car and exotic drivers...

Another interesting home for a Hayabusa engine:

Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:03 am

For the Prius experts among us here, just caught the tail end of a TV discussion on a money/investments show mentioning that Toyota could go anytime with a 100% plug in electric model, but the hangup is the current battery technology.

Apparently battery life would only be 2 years if it were 100% a plug in, but the cost of the replacement batteries would be $8K-$10K, so there was no practical way to warranty a newer technology car like this for only 2 years, the cars wouldn't sell, so the batteries instead were warranteed for 10 years (and the show seemed to suggest) the hybrid system was designed around getting 10+ years out of the batteries, not necessarily to get the highest mpgs or the greenest of all lowest emissions?

The Prius is getting a couple bump ups in mpgs with the 2010 and possibly again in 2011 as it was told, just no mention of how they would do that, if extra batteries, or a newer battery technology, and/or if battery warranties would drop, but it seemed to indicate there would be compromises.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:44 am

GeorgeL wrote: From the sound of your statements, you work for Toyota, right?

Ahhh, the personal attack finally comes to the surface. Attack the messenger not the message.

No, I don't work for Toyota. Never have. But if it makes you feel better to imagine I do, so you can mindlessly dismiss the facts I post, go right ahead. Have a nice day on whatever planet you live on.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:47 am

GeorgeL wrote: Releasing unfinished and buggy software prematurely because it can be "easily fixed in the next service pack" and then calling this practice "a benefit to the owner" is how Microsoft achieved its sterling :roll: reputation among its customers. This approach shouldn't be emulated by auto manufacturers, particularly when customer lives are at stake.

Hmmm, so now you are inventing the story that Toyota released "unfinished and buggy" software because it wants to emulate Microsoft?

More made up $hit. Anyone got a pooper scooper?

Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:02 am

Brezelwerks wrote: For the Prius experts among us here, just caught the tail end of a TV discussion on a money/investments show mentioning that Toyota could go anytime with a 100% plug in electric model, but the hangup is the current battery technology.

Operating in all electric mode is available in Japan, and (I think) Europe. Not a lot of range, maybe 4-5 miles, but enough to run to the store for milk and bread.

I have heard that it is not available in the USA because it would throw the Prius into a different category as far as the Federal regulations/tax breaks/commuter lanes and all that are concerned.

Someone is selling a kit that bootlegs the all electric option. It looks pretty simple, but of course installing it would void the warranty.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:20 am

The present Prius can run at most about 2 miles, and typically barely one mile, in electric mode. The storage capacity of the battery pack is not large, and is intentionally constrained to a charge state of between about 30% and 70%. This limit is done to protect the pack from ectremes in charge state, which would lower its life. As a result, they last at least 200K miles but since there have been so few failures it might be much more. Taxis have routinely gone 200K+. Toyota bought them back to analyze them, and gave the taxis a new battery. They were working fine when removed, though.

This limited range makes the pure electric mode useful for only a few cases: moving for parking, non-polluting in an enclosed structure, or for VERY short trips. The "EV" button is available in Japan, but not in the US, and it is primarily due to EPA regulations. The use of the EV button adds a random element to the testing, and the tests are supposed to be repeatable. So rather than test with all possible EV-mode use cycles, Toyota just left it off.

Even with the EV button engaged, the ECU still constrains state of charge to the same 30/70 limits, so there is no effect on the life of the battery.

The Toyota Highlander hybrid now comes with the EV button, so apparently they have solved the EPA problem with that model. It remains to be seen if the 2009 Prius will have this feature.

The warranty is at risk if there are any battery problems, since Toyota can't be assured it is installed correctly. But the button is literally just a momentary switch with one wire. The software to operate and regulate EV mode in still in the ECU on US models.

With a larger battery the Prius can become a plug-in model, but the payback isn't there yet. Lithium batteries, if and when they can be made safe and reliable, will change that. But that is not a sure thing.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:27 am

KTPhil wrote: ls.

With a larger battery the Prius can become a plug-in model, but the payback isn't there yet. Lithium batteries, if and when they can be made safe and reliable, will change that. But that is not a sure thing.

I thought I read the plug-in was a done deal for 2010? I'm planning to keep mine till then for that reason.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:33 am

Lithium aren't crap compared to LiPoly batteries. If they use LiPoly batts you will get triple the run time out of a battery 1/8th the size of a standard batt. Just for comparison a motor cylce batter is replaced by a battery the size of the 1st iPods.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:24 am

There are people converting the present Prius to plug-in, but the $5K+ cost doesn't pay back for a long time. NiMH just doesn't have the energy density and resiliance. Lithium bettary development has lagged, mainly due to safety concerns, not helped by Sony(?) laptop problems. I don't think Toyota or any manufacturer has promised a date for a plug-in hybrid. I expect to also keep my Prius at least until those new models come out. In fact, I'll probably be putting 2-300K before I buy a new car, and by then there may be two more generations of hybrids out. Then there's the Volt, and other promises that might, just might, get kept in another 5 yers or so.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:31 pm

KTPhil wrote: GeorgeL wrote: From the sound of your statements, you work for Toyota, right?

Ahhh, the personal attack finally comes to the surface. Attack the messenger not the message.

No, I don't work for Toyota. Never have. But if it makes you feel better to imagine I do, so you can mindlessly dismiss the facts I post, go right ahead. Have a nice day on whatever planet you live on.

Is working for Toyota such a bad thing that my question constitutes a "personal attack"? I was simply curious, since some of your verbiage such as "the problem can be wrongly identified by owners" and "a feature that can lower life cycle ownership costs" sound like they came straight from Toyota public relations.

KTPhil wrote: GeorgeL wrote: Releasing unfinished and buggy software prematurely because it can be "easily fixed in the next service pack" and then calling this practice "a benefit to the owner" is how Microsoft achieved its sterling :roll: reputation among its customers. This approach shouldn't be emulated by auto manufacturers, particularly when customer lives are at stake.

Hmmm, so now you are inventing the story that Toyota released "unfinished and buggy" software because it wants to emulate Microsoft?

More made up $hit. Anyone got a pooper scooper?

No, I pointed out that this kind of practice is what gave Microsoft its reputation and that auto manufacturers _shouldn't_ emulate it.

You brought up the "stalling" software bug. You also brought up the fact that the fix for this bug resulted in irreparably damaged ECUs due to inadequate training by Toyota. Further, you stated that the ability to flash the EEPROMs to fix bugs (or, as you put it, to make "upgrades and corrections") was "a real benefit to the owner."

If these statements are "made up $hit", as you so politely put it, then you are the one who made them up.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:42 pm

GeorgeL wrote: Is working for Toyota such a bad thing that my question constitutes a "personal attack"? I was simply curious, since some of your verbiage such as "the problem can be wrongly identified by owners" and "a feature that can lower life cycle ownership costs" sound like they came straight from Toyota public relations.

C'mon kids, do we really believe that this gentleman was just trying to compliment me on working for a fine upstanding company that Toyota is? Or are we smart enough to know he was trying to disparage me and my posts by claiming that I am just a shill for my employer? :roll:

GeorgeL wrote: You brought up the "stalling" software bug. You also brought up the fact that the fix for this bug resulted in irreparably damaged ECUs due to inadequate training by Toyota. Further, you stated that the ability to flash the EEPROMs to fix bugs (or, as you put it, to make "upgrades and corrections") was "a real benefit to the owner."

I stand by all those statements. With 10 years on the road and over a million sold, the tiny number of actual failures is vanishingly small, and these numbers vindicate the systems approach Toyota took. My car did not exhibit the problem, but Toyota flashed my ECU correctly and at no cost to me, as it has done for tens of thousands of others. Is this somehow a bad thing?

If it had been another make and design, the car dash would have to be torn apart to get to the ECU, and either a replacement ECU or a replacement ROM chip would have to be installed. Changing out hardware is always a more risky and expensive proposition than software, and is even more heavily dependent upon proper training.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:52 pm

KTPhil wrote: If it had been another make and design, the car dash would have to be torn apart to get to the ECU, and either a replacement ECU or a replacement ROM chip would have to be installed.

To remove the ECU from of my conventional Toyota requires removal of the glove box door (no tools, 30 seconds), removal of two screws (screwdriver, 2 minutes) and disconnection of four connectors (no tools, 1 minute). This isn't the nightmare scenario you propose. Moreover, replacing a ROM shouldn't require removal of the ECU at all. Properly designed, it could be as easy as changing a memory card in a camera.

KTPhil wrote: Changing out hardware is always a more risky and expensive proposition than software, and is even more heavily dependent upon proper training.

Absolute statements are usually wrong. Replacing a memory card in a camera is "changing out hardware" and millions of people do that every day without a second thought. Heck, Toyota could mail the bug fix ROMs to the owners and avoid their having to go to the dealer at all!

OTOH, flashing EEPROMs on a device that has proven to be vulnerable if exact procedures are not followed is unquestionably risky. It won't get any safer as the number of EEPROM-controlled vehicles increases and those vehicles are no longer subject to special attention during service.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:08 pm

GeorgeL wrote:
To remove the ECU from of my conventional Toyota requires removal of the glove box door (no tools, 30 seconds), removal of two screws (screwdriver, 2 minutes) and disconnection of four connectors (no tools, 1 minute). This isn't the nightmare scenario you propose. Moreover, replacing a ROM shouldn't require removal of the ECU at all. Properly designed, it could be as easy as changing a memory card in a camera.

Much too complex. To reprogram, the mechanic connects a battery charger to the 12V battery, plugs the tester into the under-dash connector, presses a few buttons on the tester, and walks away.

Besides, the manufacturers have an obligation to the EPA to make the car NOT user-programmable. Read the fine print on all those chip replacements-- they say they are not for street use. So either they require the THHT tester like Toyota, or require a more complex chip removal process.

Ask your GM dealer if he warranties the engine management system after you have replaced a chip.

And many owners have blown camera memory by zapping them with static. Those who replace chips in their line of work get ESD training to prevent that. Do most owners use a wrist strap?

Besides, you forgot the 2 week waiting time for the replacement ECU to arrive. ;-) No hardware inventory needed with an ECU flash.

Besides, this is the car's future, whether you like it or not. If you don't, do like some here and use your ACVW as a daily driver. But if you want a newer car with air bags, navigation, screen operated stereo, backup cameras, seat position memory, climate control, etc., be prepared for a software-controlled vehicle.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:32 pm

KTPhil wrote: GeorgeL wrote:
To remove the ECU from of my conventional Toyota requires removal of the glove box door (no tools, 30 seconds), removal of two screws (screwdriver, 2 minutes) and disconnection of four connectors (no tools, 1 minute). This isn't the nightmare scenario you propose. Moreover, replacing a ROM shouldn't require removal of the ECU at all. Properly designed, it could be as easy as changing a memory card in a camera.

Much too complex. To reprogram, the mechanic connects a battery charger to the 12V battery, plugs the tester into the under-dash connector, presses a few buttons on the tester, and walks away.
This is easier than removing one card from a slot and replacing it with another card?
KTPhil wrote: Besides, the manufacturers have an obligation to the EPA to make the car NOT user-programmable. Read the fine print on all those chip replacements-- they say they are not for street use. So either they require the THHT tester like Toyota, or require a more complex chip removal process.
As you point out, ROMS can and are made removable by some manufacturers. Whether to remain legal or not is the responsibility of the vehicle owner.
KTPhil wrote: Ask your GM dealer if he warranties the engine management system after you have replaced a chip.
He will, if the replacement chip came from GM. The same applies to every other part on the car.
KTPhil wrote: And many owners have blown camera memory by zapping them with static. Those who replace chips in their line of work get ESD training to prevent that. Do most owners use a wrist strap?
I have never heard of a camera memory being zapped by static in normal use. A ROM would be far less susceptible than flash memory to static problems and the typical owner would be more likely to follow the anti-static instructions than a dealer mechanic. This is a non-issue.
KTPhil wrote: Besides, you forgot the 2 week waiting time for the replacement ECU to arrive. ;-) No hardware inventory needed with an ECU flash.
You can mail a ROM to an owner anywhere in the US in three days. It'll take longer than that to get an appointment with a dealer for an EEPROM flash, and it's likely that the software for the flash would takes weeks to go through Toyota's distribution network. Oh, and then you have to train the mechanics on how not to trash the customer's ECU.
KTPhil wrote: Besides, this is the car's future, whether you like it or not.
Software-control is fine, but the programmers of that software should pay the same attention to producing good code as the mechanical engineers pay to producing good mechanisms. The "Get it out, fix it later" mentality doesn't work when lives are on the line. Building ECUs that are so fragile that they can be trashed by misprogramming also won't do.

Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:09 am

Do you have any evidence that Toyota used a "Get it out, fix it later" approach on the Prius software? They have sold over a million Prius cars and done so for eight years before this problem came to light. Hardly seems haphazard to me. Or is this just more "made up $hit"? (I'm detecting a pattern here.)

Oh, and there are never recalls for mechanical problems? No ignition switch fires in Fords, no runaway accelerators in Audis, no random rear door openings in Chrysler minivans?

Sounds like the "Get it out, fix it later" approach is already well rooted in the hardware world.

Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:13 am

GeorgeL wrote: it's likely that the software for the flash would takes weeks to go through Toyota's distribution network.

They upgraded their analog modems to 1200 baud years ago, so it doesn't take weeks.

Oh wait, that was 15 years ago. Now they have guaranteed QOS DSL lines for their software distribution, so it's a few minutes.

Or do you think email is slower than snail mail, too?