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Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:38 pm

Eaallred wrote: I wish people would stop trying to build a Nerf world. Know the risks going into a situation, and if something happens, you accept those consequences. That's what top fuel drivers do. Aircraft pilots do, scuba divers do, rock climbers do, etc, etc. You want to be safe, stay at home on the couch with the power and gas turned off to your house.

No one is trying to nerf the world. A slight overreaction, no? Why don't we stop them from wearing seat belts while were at it?? :roll:

My only point was SOME SORT OF system at the end of a drag strip besides a wall and sand trap (better for golf than drag strips). There was plenty of time between the blow up and the wall for something else to stop him.

I would be certain he survived that initial blast as we see them quite frequently in drag racing. This above YouTube is taken from the finish line. There is quite a distance from there to the wall.

Would netting be OK to mention???

I am sure that for that last second Scott would have appreciated something on the track to stop him.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:51 pm

As much as I love drag racing, I am not familiar with the layout of the
track. One of you stated that beyond "the wall" is a freeway. It sems
that an, emergency only, over pass could be built to go over the free-
way and possibly extended further out as needed.
We all know that there is a ton of money in the sport so barring zoning
issues, this could be an alternative.
Just my .02

Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:26 pm

Ghoti wrote: Eaallred wrote: I wish people would stop trying to build a Nerf world. Know the risks going into a situation, and if something happens, you accept those consequences. That's what top fuel drivers do. Aircraft pilots do, scuba divers do, rock climbers do, etc, etc. You want to be safe, stay at home on the couch with the power and gas turned off to your house.

No one is trying to nerf the world. A slight overreaction, no? Why don't we stop them from wearing seat belts while were at it?? :roll:

My only point was SOME SORT OF system at the end of a drag strip besides a wall and sand trap (better for golf than drag strips). There was plenty of time between the blow up and the wall for something else to stop him.

I would be certain he survived that initial blast as we see them quite frequently in drag racing. This above YouTube is taken from the finish line. There is quite a distance from there to the wall.

Would netting be OK to mention???

I am sure that for that last second Scott would have appreciated something on the track to stop him.

the blast was most likely not fatal but it could have knocked him unconscious since i didn't really see him try any way of slowing the car down, course he could have thought that the sandpit would have stopped it and just guessed wrong.

i'm guessing that Del Worsham and the Pedregons team are now much more concerned with the outcome since they have had this body explosion happen a number of times within this season and last season.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:38 pm

Ghoti wrote:
No one is trying to nerf the world. A slight overreaction, no? Why don't we stop them from wearing seat belts while were at it?? :roll:

I'm not over-reacting, just putting logic to it.

As much as I hate to say it, the almighty dollar has the final ruling, and instances like this are NOT common enough to warrant the expense of something like that. What was the last time someone went all the way through the sand like that in a top fueler, 1993 or something? It's not even ONCE a DECADE.

Racers are not going to want to drag a hook under thier car down the track, try to imagine what that would do to the track. And don't even start "automatic hook deployment" talk.

Racers are not going to want to drive over cables while trying to slow down during a normal "situation normal" shut down. Hitting cables on the track while slowing down is going to make a BAD situation. So the theoretical cables would have to be right after the last turnout, see? Well, that's where the sand trap is.

Then "what if" something goes wrong during a run, and you crash into those cables at the end of the track? Where is that cable going to cut through? It's a big tangled mess of "#&&$ yourself up" waiting for you at the end of the track "unless you approach them 'like so'". You saved one life in a decade with the cables, but how many others did you take because they came into them sidways or upside down? It should go without saying that if you're going into the sand trap, you are not completley "in control" and are probably not going to end up hitting them "just right" to slow you down anyway. If you don't hit them "just right", you're likley to be better off that they aren't there at all.

Unfortunatly, SAND is really the best option for MOST of the people that end up going into it. It's forgiving, it slows you down. And not only that, it doesn't care what angle you hit it at (on your wheels, on your side, upside down, coming at it backward, etc), it's there for you. You have to look for options that are best for "MOST" situations, not the "once ever 10 years situation".

What should be looked at is the chutes. Why did they either not open correctly (debris in them?) or burn (we can't really tell from the video). Maybe if they had opened, it could have slowed him down more. You also have to wonder why he didn't "ride the rail" to scrub off some speed. He was probably knocked unconsious and couldn't respond is my guess.

The most logical idea's i've heard in all the discussions is a remote fuel cutoff, but it's a system that pumps a gallon a second though a 3" fuel line. Is it feesable? I don't know. If the pumps are mechanical, then "no" i'm guessing. The other, stop running at tracks with short shutdown areas. It would be unfortunate for E-town and thier long history with the NHRA.

Or, as I see it, these men (and women) are professionals. This is thier job, and nobody does it better than them. If they all feel that "yea, it's a short shutdown area than other tracks", but continue to run it because they feel they can shut the car down except in a rare occurance, then so be it. Nobody knows better than they do if they should run a track like that. All of us at the keyboards here don't have any idea what thier shutdown procedure is like, not like they do.

They know the risk, they know the situation, and continue to run it. I respect thier decision, they know a lot more about shutting down a car at 330mph than I, or any of us do.

Judging from the speed the car was going, I think that car would have been toast at just about any track. That thing was FLYING when it got to the sand.

This ended up being a fluke accident. Things like this are going to happen. It's very unfortunate when they do. I can't imagine what his wife and kids are going through at this time. I'm not an insensitive a-hole and hope i'm not coming across like one. You just have to look at the logistics of the situation. Has anyone else lost thier life at E-town because they went straight into that wall? I'm betting not. I know it's been hit before by a top fuel car, but that driver is now crew chief for a team. If it's only happened to one person in all the years that track has been running, then from the bean-counter point of view, no, nothing needs to change.

Also, get rid of the sand (which stops/slows down EVERY car that goes into it) with a row of cables that will only stop a properly equipped top fuel car if it hits the cables 'just so', and you'll see more people going into that wall.

Like I say, the logistics don't support a cable idea. I don't mean to be a prick, but as racer, I don't like the idea of it. And judging by the lack of any cable systems ever being developed, most all racers probably feel the same way.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:57 pm

Eaallred wrote: Ghoti wrote:
No one is trying to nerf the world. A slight overreaction, no? Why don't we stop them from wearing seat belts while were at it?? :roll:

I'm not over-reacting, just putting logic to it.

As much as I hate to say it, the almighty dollar has the final ruling, and instances like this are NOT common enough to warrant the expense of something like that. What was the last time someone went all the way through the sand like that in a top fueler, 1993 or something? It's not even ONCE a DECADE.

this happenned at sears point with the same exact outcome, but i think it was a top alcohol driver about 8 or 10 years ago during qualifying. i remember it was a woman and remember the crash very well. me, my dad, and my dads friend were walking up the hill thats on the backside of the track where the parking lot is, which gives you an awesome view of the whole strip. the car went through the sandpit, used the fence like a ramp, bounced off the top of a truck, and blew to pieces. i was told that something happenned with tire shake that caused her to get knocked unconcious and she went wide open straight down the track.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:10 pm

russell wrote:
this happenned at sears point with the same exact outcome, but i think it was a top alcohol driver about 8 or 10 years ago during qualifying. i remember it was a woman and remember the crash very well. me, my dad, and my dads friend were walking up the hill thats on the backside of the track where the parking lot is, which gives you an awesome view of the whole strip. the car went through the sandpit, used the fence like a ramp, bounced off the top of a truck, and blew to pieces. i was told that something happenned with tire shake that caused her to get knocked unconcious and she went wide open straight down the track.

Sorry, meant same track. Looking at it through the eyes of a bean counter, which is how the whole world revolves wether we like it or not.

Just as a side note, Funny Cars have four wheel disc brakes. They can stop without the chutes at most of the tracks. It cooks the hell out of them, but they can stop the car.

Scott had to have been knocked out from the blast, because he didn't steer into the rail to slow down, nor did he get on the brakes. The only thing that would have saved him at that point would be 'outside sources'. Normally in a case like that they end up going into a rail which slows them down considerably. It's just very bad luck that car continued to go straight as an arrow.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:15 pm

Eaallred wrote: Scott had to have been knocked out from the blast, because he didn't steer into the rail to slow down, nor did he get on the brakes. The only thing that would have saved him at that point would be 'outside sources'. Normally in a case like that they end up going into a rail which slows them down considerably. It's just very bad luck that car continued to go straight as an arrow.

That's all I'm sayin'!

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:15 pm

Eaallred wrote: Ghoti wrote:
No one is trying to nerf the world. A slight overreaction, no? Why don't we stop them from wearing seat belts while were at it?? :roll:

I'm not over-reacting, just putting logic to it.

As much as I hate to say it, the almighty dollar has the final ruling, and instances like this are NOT common enough to warrant the expense of something like that. What was the last time someone went all the way through the sand like that in a top fueler, 1993 or something? It's not even ONCE a DECADE.

Racers are not going to want to drag a hook under thier car down the track, try to imagine what that would do to the track. And don't even start "automatic hook deployment" talk.

Racers are not going to want to drive over cables while trying to slow down during a normal "situation normal" shut down. Hitting cables on the track while slowing down is going to make a BAD situation. So the theoretical cables would have to be right after the last turnout, see? Well, that's where the sand trap is.

Then "what if" something goes wrong during a run, and you crash into those cables at the end of the track? Where is that cable going to cut through? It's a big tangled mess of "#&&$ yourself up" waiting for you at the end of the track "unless you approach them 'like so'". You saved one life in a decade with the cables, but how many others did you take because they came into them sidways or upside down? It should go without saying that if you're going into the sand trap, you are not completley "in control" and are probably not going to end up hitting them "just right" to slow you down anyway. If you don't hit them "just right", you're likley to be better off that they aren't there at all.

Unfortunatly, SAND is really the best option for MOST of the people that end up going into it. It's forgiving, it slows you down. And not only that, it doesn't care what angle you hit it at (on your wheels, on your side, upside down, coming at it backward, etc), it's there for you. You have to look for options that are best for "MOST" situations, not the "once ever 10 years situation".

What should be looked at is the chutes. Why did they either not open correctly (debris in them?) or burn (we can't really tell from the video). Maybe if they had opened, it could have slowed him down more. You also have to wonder why he didn't "ride the rail" to scrub off some speed. He was probably knocked unconsious and couldn't respond is my guess.

The most logical idea's i've heard in all the discussions is a remote fuel cutoff, but it's a system that pumps a gallon a second though a 3" fuel line. Is it feesable? I don't know. If the pumps are mechanical, then "no" i'm guessing. The other, stop running at tracks with short shutdown areas. It would be unfortunate for E-town and thier long history with the NHRA.

Or, as I see it, these men (and women) are professionals. This is thier job, and nobody does it better than them. If they all feel that "yea, it's a short shutdown area than other tracks", but continue to run it because they feel they can shut the car down except in a rare occurance, then so be it. Nobody knows better than they do if they should run a track like that. All of us at the keyboards here don't have any idea what thier shutdown procedure is like, not like they do.

They know the risk, they know the situation, and continue to run it. I respect thier decision, they know a lot more about shutting down a car at 330mph than I, or any of us do.

Judging from the speed the car was going, I think that car would have been toast at just about any track. That thing was FLYING when it got to the sand.

This ended up being a fluke accident. Things like this are going to happen. It's very unfortunate when they do. I can't imagine what his wife and kids are going through at this time. I'm not an insensitive a-hole and hope i'm not coming across like one. You just have to look at the logistics of the situation. Has anyone else lost thier life at E-town because they went straight into that wall? I'm betting not. I know it's been hit before by a top fuel car, but that driver is now crew chief for a team. If it's only happened to one person in all the years that track has been running, then from the bean-counter point of view, no, nothing needs to change.

Also, get rid of the sand (which stops/slows down EVERY car that goes into it) with a row of cables that will only stop a properly equipped top fuel car if it hits the cables 'just so', and you'll see more people going into that wall.

Like I say, the logistics don't support a cable idea. I don't mean to be a prick, but as racer, I don't like the idea of it. And judging by the lack of any cable systems ever being developed, most all racers probably feel the same way.

Eric there is tons of people that have been to the BEACH. He hit the concrete wall that holds the safety net in place

Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:29 am

The older tracks HAVE to go when it comes to cars running these speeds. Safety improvements have just not kept up with the speeds involved.

And while we can’t ever plan for and protect our selves from every thing that can go wrong, serious changes need to be made to some of these tracks. Some of the older tracks were designed and built when hot rods were just able to break the 100 mph mark at the traps. When speeds exceed 300 mph, changes need to be made.

Consider this, Malcolm Cambell was the first to set a Land Speed record over 300mph with Bluebird at Bonneville Salt Flats. That was 301.129mph in 1935. The course was over 7 miles long.

Today, drag cars far exceed this speed in only a quarter of a mile.

It took until 1964 before the Land Speed record broke 400 mph. A lot of these older tracks were being built around that time.

At this level of intensity, things go wrong in a big way. Was he dead or unconscious after the engine explosion? It's sort of irrelevant at this point. But with the G forces these guys are reaching leaving the line, they are near the limits of what the human body can withstand. Its entirely possible, he passed out before the engine blew up becoming a fiery bomb blast.

After Don Garlets lost part of his foot, he said the engine had to go in back. Funny cars are still front engine. The violence of this type of explosion is deadly.

Read the following and give some consideration to what is actually happening with the machine. This was written about rail dragsters, but the engines are the same as what is run in the Funny Cars.

The Following is from Engine Builder Keith Black

"DEFINITION OF ACCELERATION"

!

One top fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower than the first 4 rows of stock cars at the Daytona 500.

Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1-1/2 gallons of nitro methane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate with 25% less energy being produced.

A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the dragster's supercharger.

With 3,000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition.

Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.

At the stoichiometric (stoichiometry: methodology and technology by which quantities of reactants and products in chemical reactions are determined) 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture of nitro methane, the flame front temperature measures 7,050 deg F.

Nitro methane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.

Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an arc welder in each cylinder.

Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After halfway, the engine is dieseling from compression, plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1,400 deg F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.

If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.

In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds, dragsters must accelerate an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph (well before half-track), the launch acceleration approaches 8G's.

Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading this sentence.

Top fuel engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to light! Including the burnout, the engine must only survive 900 revolutions under load.

The redline is actually quite high at 9,500 rpm.

Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimate $1,000.00 per second.

The current top fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top speed record is 333.00 mph (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of the run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).

Putting all of this into perspective:

You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a top fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears and blast across the starting line and pass the dragster at an honest 200 mph. The "tree" goes green for both of you at that moment.

The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds, the dragster catches and passes you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.

Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed you within a mere 1,320 foot long race course.

... and that my friend, is ACCELERATION!

Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:17 am

Terry Cloyd wrote:
Eric there is tons of people that have been to the BEACH. He hit the concrete wall that holds the safety net in place

He hit the wall that keeps the race cars from going into the trees and on the road right behind the tree line.
It is part of the right side retaining wall of the track and curves around and across the end of the sand trap.

Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:54 am

turboblue wrote: Terry Cloyd wrote:
Eric there is tons of people that have been to the BEACH. He hit the concrete wall that holds the safety net in place

He hit the wall that keeps the race cars from going into the trees and on the road right behind the tree line.
It is part of the right side retaining wall of the track and curves around and across the end of the sand trap.

Don Prudhomme, a legendary figure in drag racing, witnessed the scene and said Kalitta's car ""went into a million pieces.''

"I haven't witnessed anything like that in a number of years,'' Prudhomme said. "These cars, for the most part, are pretty damn safe. As many runs as we make down a quarter-mile, as many runs as he's made, they're pretty damn safe.

"The car didn't slow up enough, (the car) got airborne, and he happened to hit a post that's virtually impossible to do. I mean, I would've never thought that that could happen. I would've never thought that you could get airborn and hit
that guardrail and hit that post.''

The concrete post, Prudhomme said, serves as support for the safety net that's designed to catch cars veering off the strip. Since Kalitta's parachute never deployed, Prudhomme said the car "never had a chance'' once it hit the post at such a rapid speed.

Gary were you at the end of the track :?: :?: :?: Gary at the Winternational at Pomona. I set in the control tower so I can see what happens, plus can see the replay :lol:

Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:19 am

Don't be a smart ass Terry.
I wasn't there, were you?

Terry Cloyd wrote: I would've never thought that you could get airborn and hit
that guardrail and hit that post.''

I'm not gonna argue what he hit Terry.
He's dead and gone.......... :(

Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:29 am

turboblue wrote: Don't be a smart ass Terry.
I wasn't there, were you?

Terry Cloyd wrote: I would've never thought that you could get airborn and hit
that guardrail and hit that post.''

I'm not gonna argue what he hit Terry.
He's dead and gone.......... :(

Why Gary I am not a smart ass, but I have been racing since 1963. You need proof everytime I post :?: :?: :lol: :lol: I will beat you up :wink:

Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:44 am

Terry Cloyd wrote: turboblue wrote: Don't be a smart ass Terry.
I wasn't there, were you?

Terry Cloyd wrote: I would've never thought that you could get airborn and hit
that guardrail and hit that post.''

I'm not gonna argue what he hit Terry.
He's dead and gone.......... :(

Why Gary I am not a smart ass, but I have been racing since 1963. You need proof everytime I post :?: :?: :lol: :lol: I will beat you up :wink:

No I don't need proof of anything you do Terry.
You ain't that much older so don't pull your AARP card on me.

And if you are gonna beat me up, pack your lunch.
It's gonna take a you a while and I'm getting hungry....... :wink:

Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:54 pm

drscope wrote:
"DEFINITION OF ACCELERATION"
...
Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading this sentence.

Provided you learned to read with "hukd awn fonix"...

Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:07 am

It is still one of the most fan friendly forms of racing
let it rain nitro !

http://media.putfile.com/drag-burp

http://media.putfile.com/Fram-national-drags

Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:25 am

Have they held the funeral yet or was he just cremated?

Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:25 pm

so, it has happenned, personally i think it sucks but its a good thing in the step of safety.

Quote: NHRA shortens race distance for Top Fuel and Funny Car classes to 1,000 feet as an interim safety measure

looks like we might be seeing some 2 second runs :lol:

Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:27 pm

Vanhag wrote: Have they held the funeral yet or was he just cremated?

I was going to call poor taste, but I recognize it as applicable dark humor given your line of work. :lol:

Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:31 pm

russell wrote: so, it has happenned, personally i think it sucks but its a good thing in the step of safety.

Quote: NHRA shortens race distance for Top Fuel and Funny Car classes to 1,000 feet as an interim safety measure

And it wouldn't have made any difference at all in the accident in question.