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Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:23 pm

wondering if anyone is using it in there diesel vw?

Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:46 pm

The mixtures, from what I have read, meet or exceed API specs for diesel, so it should be no problem. Just make sure you are using a "compatible" blend, and not a specialized high biomass content version.

By the way, it takes more energy to produce the bio portion of the biodiesel fuel than to refine an equivalent portion of crude into diesel, so if you think you are being "green" by using this stuff, you're kidding yourself.

Thu May 01, 2003 9:16 am

well have you ever made it before?its really not that hard. i'm currently making 55 gallons a day at my place and suppling anyone in the chico, california area who wants a alternative to petro diesel for a nominal price per gallon. i am running it soley in my 2003 tdi new bettle.
its non-toxic and biodegradable.
so i am being green in using it. also the bi-product is glycerine(mechanics hand soap).
so there is no waste.
also the W.V.O.(waste veggie oil) i s given to us free because the resturants have to pay to get rid of it. so they are excited to just give it to us.

Thu May 01, 2003 10:21 am

What is your "nominal price per gallon", Rob?

Thu May 01, 2003 10:53 am

"By the way, it takes more energy to produce the bio portion of the biodiesel fuel than to refine an equivalent portion of crude into diesel, so if you think you are being "green" by using this stuff, you're kidding yourself."

That's a convenient statistical bit of crap there, supplied, no doubt, by the petrochemical industry. The fact is that, even if you have to burn some fossil fuels to get the biodiesel (not sure where, since kitchen-sink chemistry is all that's required to make the stuff, but that's another story), you are using something (gross old frying oil) that would be otherwise wasted to make something useful (biodiesel), plus biodiesel releases fewer carcinogens and other toxic compounds than its petrolium-derived cousin, and is derived from a renewable source, which means you don't have to drill anywhere or lobby congress or shoot anyone overseas to get it.

Thu May 01, 2003 11:47 am

thank you 6volt!

my nominal price per gallon is $2.
at the berkley biodiesel co-op they are charging about $2.30 a gallon.
we are currently putting together a chico biodiesel co-op. anyone intrested can contact me at rob@shocking.com

we are also putting together a documentary and how-to video so you can make it yourself.

Thu May 01, 2003 12:56 pm

Let's see your procedure for producing the stuff. Then we can all see how "green" the process is.

Thu May 01, 2003 2:27 pm

dude, why are you being this way about it?
its a positive thing and a alternative to fossil fuels.
when filming is done i will send you copy if you like.
check out www.journeytoforever.org the whole recipe is right there.
peace

Thu May 01, 2003 3:17 pm

There are two reasons to be "this way about it".

1. Burning Biodiesel increases the emission of NOX, or nitrogen oxides. This is the main contributor to ground level smog. If a "politically incorrect" fuel were proposed to be used and had this defect, there would be people laying down in the streets in front of cars using biodiesel to protest its use.

2. The energy content of the waste Veggie oil used in making biodiesel is far greater than the net energy produced after processing it and then burning it in a car. If you just trucked the stuff to an electrical power station and burned it, you would offset 30 to 40% more CO2 than you do by burning it in a car.

3. The same people who love the idea of burning this higher polluting fuel in cars will fight to the death to prevent the construction of electrical power plants which burn refuse, like this veggie oil, to produce electricity. They would rather build huge landfills for garbage than burn it to recover the energy wasted by its storage.

Thu May 01, 2003 3:17 pm

Sorry, "3" reasons.

Thu May 01, 2003 3:31 pm

...and you work for which oil company or refinery?

How about posting some links to real information about it. Seriously. Your info must come from somewhere. Link me up so I can read all about it and make up my own mind.

Thu May 01, 2003 4:09 pm

Here's three links.
One about the fact that NO is the major contributor to smog:

http://royal.okanagan.bc.ca/mpidwirn/atmosphereandclimate/smog.html#c

And another about the observed fact that biodiesel fuel INCREASES the production of NO emmission in diesel engines:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/biodsl/p02001.pdf

Scroll down to figure ES-A on page ii of the Executive Summary.

Thu May 01, 2003 4:09 pm

Sorry, "2" links, I just can't count today.

Fri May 02, 2003 7:06 am

Here is a Doc on how to make Biodiesel. You will need Adobe Acrobat.

http://72bug.home.mindspring.com/bug/HP93_32.pdf

Fri May 02, 2003 8:43 am

I perused that second link quickly (that first one doesn't seem to work), and would like to point out the following three things to consider. I have included three quotes from the EPA report to show you what I mean.

1. The report, and specifically the NOx emissions data, came from heavy-duty highway engine testing. The report states that there is insufficient data to assume that light duty engines would produce similar emissions.

2. The report is based on data from engines produced in 1997 or earlier, and does not include any information on engines meeting the new 2004 emissions standards. Engines with EGR, NOx traps, or other technology will not necessarily emit in the same way.

3. Biodiesel is an emerging technology, and the production methods of biodiesel can be modified to alleviate the NOx problems. In addition, all other measured emissions are dramatically reduced when using biodiesel, which may or may not help to remediate some of the problems caused by the relatively small increase in NOx.

"Because the amount of heavy-duty highway engine data in our database far surpassed the
amount of data for other equipment types, we opted to base our primary analyses on heavy-duty highway engine data only. However, nonroad diesel engines and, to a much lesser extent, lightduty diesel vehicles, also contribute to the total mobile source inventories for regulated pollutants. We therefore compared the emission impacts of biodiesel use estimated for heavyduty highway engines to data collected on nonroad engines and light-duty vehicles. Based on the analyses described in this Section, we have concluded that there is insufficient support for extrapolating heavy-duty highway engine effects to nonroad or light-duty."

"Our database contains no data on heavy-duty highway engines meeting the 2004
standards. Not only will these engines be a significant portion of the in-use fleet in the near future, but there is evidence that they may respond differently than older engines to changes in fuel properties due to the expected predominance of exhaust gas recirculation and injection rateshaping in these newer engines. Although we attempted to evaluate how these engines might respond to biodiesel in Section IV.B.5, we cannot know for certain how these engines will respond to biodiesel without actual emissions data."

"One potential drawback to the use of biodiesel is the increase in NOx emissions.
Although the increase is small in comparison to the reductions in other regulated pollutants, such NOx increases may be problematic for ozone nonattainment or maintenance areas. Thus additional research on ways to mitigate the NOx increase would be valuable. Various strategies might include using a lower-emitting base fuel for blending, adding a cetane improver additive to the biodiesel blend, or determining what source or properties of biodiesel can be modified to lower NOx emissions. Some of these fuel strategies have been investigated in a recent SAE paper by Robert McCormick et al9. Other strategies might be hardware-related, such as changing injection timing or adding a lean NOx catalyst, and additional studies of these strategies in concert with biodiesel would be valuable."

Fri May 02, 2003 8:47 am

6v i couldn't say it any better.

so do you own a diesel vehicle?

Fri May 02, 2003 8:59 am

Also, from the site that 72bug put up:

"Burning biodiesel will reduce the overall emissions from your car or truck substantially. The only element in your exhaust that may increase is nitrous oxide, which is one of the irritants in diesel exhaust. But, by retarding the timing in your engine, you can eliminate this increase, too. In Europe they use a catalytic converter, which reduces the nitrous oxide to below normal levels."

The EPA document also states that NOx emissions can be affected by changes in timing, BTW.

Fri May 02, 2003 9:08 am

Nope, I don't own a diesel. I drive a Subaru or a '66 bug, and they both get about 26mpg. What can I say, hypocrisy is my other hobby.

Fri May 02, 2003 7:45 pm

How much petroleum and energy does it take to make that 1 liter of Methanol and 15 grams of anhydrous Sodium Hydroxide (Lye), plus mixing, and heating in your gallon of Biodiesel? Why do you think it costs more to make Biodiesel, even with a free source of Veggie oil, than the wholesale (pretax) price of petroleum diesel?
The cost of bulk liquid commodities is almost entirely determined by the energy necessary to produce it. If it costs more, than it took more energy to make.
Methanol derived from Petroleum is more costly than diesel because it requires more energy to produce.
You people are just fooling yourselves. Why don't you build an electric car and run it with Duracell batteries? If you ignore the source of the energy, your car will be "non polluting".

Fri May 02, 2003 9:46 pm

so j.pickens do you support the making and using of biodiesel or not?

when broken down it only costs me $.33 cents a gallon to make in my backyard.
in california petro-diesel is 1.75 agallon.