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Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:34 pm

Alrighty, I started a new thread for two reasons:

1- I want NO assumptions made about what has been done on this engine previously. I want to cover ALL bases from the very beginning, no matter how basic.

2- I did not want people to pass over adriel's thread simply because it is long and things get lost, I want EVERY member of the board to weigh in with any knowledge or ideas they may have, because this one's a doozy.

Let me start with what we know:

engine was running before- supposedly well enough to make it to LA and back, with tons of crap loaded in, at freeway speeds.

Engine is not running now, will not start, and will only cough every so often if floored.

now before we dive into the usual stuff, let me explain how things were when I found the engine. when I left adriel's several months ago, we had a not running car, however with valves adjusted and timing and TDC lined up. For whatever reason, the engine would turn over merrily and refuse to start.

fast forward a few weeks, and jack took mercy and went out to figure out whatever it was that I had missed. While there, they managed to get the engine running, but the plugs in a most peculiar configuration. the firing order was NOT 1432, but 1234. and trust me, it is the ONLY way to get ANY kind of life out of this engine. it will cough and start to run there, and die. it won't do ANYTHING with the plugs in the correct firing order. I took pictures below of how I found it. According to Adriel, the below position is the way the engine was running from SD to LA with apparently no problems---- except that he had a 3k idle and his engine was hot enough to melt the oil dipstick boot- pictures below.

the distributor as I found it. the furthest left plug wire, at the 9 o clock position nearest the generator, is "1". from there the firing order proceeds 1234. I KNOW this is wrong, but it is the ONLY way that it ran, and is currently the ONLY way to get any life out of it. this is the first thing that should be addressed.

here are the "timing marks" in that position. it is actually NOT the timing marks, but the 180* three teeth bridged. someone made scratch marks to mimic the timing marks, they are very faint, but there.

here is a picture of whats under the cap:

here are some shots of the drive dog at exactly that position.

here is a picture of the valves for number 1 cylinder at the above positions indicated in the photo. that is, rotor pointing to number "1" on the first dist. picture, matched with the bridged teeth in the other picture, and the drive dog in that position.

you can see from the pictures, that the two valves appear to be in transition, and not both closed and just about to open, as they should be.

now- here is the same sequence of photos, they way I orignally set them, and the way the engine DID NOT run. They were then changed to the above settings, where it DID run, until recently. Now I have changed them back to the below settings, and it STILL does NOT run.

firing order 1-4-3-2

a zoomed out view, so you can verify where the plugs are going.

here is the distributor, matched up with the line on the rim. the line on the rim in relation to the rest of the engine can be seen in the next few pictures.

drive dog as it looks under the distributor at that position:

here is a shot trying to mimic the photo in the bentley, so you get an idea of the drive dog in relation to everything else. this is the correct 60* position, is it not?

and finally, the valves.

they appear about equal, with some play (.006) as they should.

finally, some shock value pictures. this is how hot his engine got:

here is a link to the entire gallery, where even larger pictures are available.

http://www.webridestv.com/showgallery.aspx?gallery=100088

now the question is.... what the HELL is going on?

Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:42 pm

I suppose I should add some other pertinent information-- right now, I want to ignore the FI as a source of the problem, at least until we get base mechanical settings rock solid without a shred of doubt.

for one thing, his FI harness is literally brand new, NOS, NEVER been put on another car, with brand new plugs and boots and the whole shebang.

however, if and when we get to FI, we will trouble shoot it.

Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:48 pm

Have not read, but want to get in a thank you! :D

Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:25 pm

So, you've got 30 lbs fuel pressure and the injectors are spraying?

Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:39 pm

Here is some other information: starting when the engine is cold is an ordial. You cycle the key a few times, let it crank a few times, the punch the gas, and keep it floored. Apparently, Joe saw it backfire out of the intake, plus it will occasionally backfire out of the exhaust. Now being a minute or two, I can go to half idle for a half minute, then drive off.

When hot, fires right up. Turn it off, and it keeps running, sometimes for several seconds. This brings up another odd thing I had happen. I just came up a large hill, and I could tell it was hot (had the heater on with outside temperature around 80 degrees). I turn the key all the way off, and let it coast for a few miles (not known, odometer does not work). When I had to climb a hill, I put it in forth gear. It came to life, but it was running funny. Then, I realized that the ignition was off! :shock: Turned it on, and everything was back to normal. This was the trip from Fallbrook.

I picked up a load of stiff from Fallbrook, and will include the information because it maybe useful. I picked up for $100:
four cams with gears (set of Type 1 and an unknown)
four Type 3 cylinders
a set of 40h.p. pistons and cylinders (Mahle, slightly used)
crankshaft (used)
complete engine, minus plate (whatever they call them on an automatic)
exhaust consisting of muffler and upper heat exchangers
gas tank (good condition)
four Type 3 wheels
oil dipstick
front most piece of tin, with fuel pressure regulator (looks brand new, and adjustment is way out from the body)
Let me tell you, it was a bit crowded! :wink: :lol: In third, it would do up to 55m.p.h., and fourth, 60m.p.h. if flat.

Last time I checked the injectors, they were strong with a good pattern.

Oh, and when we swapped M.A.P.s, it was easier to start, and it ran better, but not perfect, according to Joe. He thought then it was not firing on all fours. It always shakes a lot when cold, a inch or two on each side (rocking).

Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:44 pm

Mike Fisher wrote: So, you've got 30 lbs fuel pressure and the injectors are spraying?

Come on Mike-pay attention. No FI comments yet :wink: So did you pull the dizzy drive gear and put it in the propper position or what? Your saying it wont fire with all this stuff in its correct position?

Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:57 pm

Here is a fool-proof way to static time to 0º where it should run at least well enough to use a timing light.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=290276

Max

Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:36 pm

notchboy wrote: Mike Fisher wrote: So, you've got 30 lbs fuel pressure and the injectors are spraying?

Come on Mike-pay attention. No FI comments yet :wink: So did you pull the dizzy drive gear and put it in the propper position or what? Your saying it wont fire with all this stuff in its correct position?

thats exactly it. Max, I follow that exact procedure whenever static timing, and we do get a slight spark and my little static light lights up, indicating that the dist. points are closing at the correct time, at the very least.

I have not checked for spark, etc, things at the plugs because the issue here is you CAN get it to run with the firing order 1234, with everyhting all boggarted up, but you CANT with it the RIGHT way. there is something more basic at work here, even than spark. because if it'll fire the wrong way, it ought to fire the right way. spark is obviously getting to the fuel at some point.

Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:42 pm

Thank you all! :D So, what I am hearing is, pull the drive, set the lash, and set the timing. Pull the distributor drive! :x This is one mechanical task I dislike the most. Oh well, maybe with Joe's blessing it will not be so bad.

Anything else?

Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:06 pm

I wonder if your cap is screwed. Have you tried another distributor cap? If you have a crack or a carbon tracing between the center coil contact and one or more of the plug contacts, it will fire all over the place. Remember basic physics: Electricity will always follow the path of LEAST resistance. Think of the ignition impulse going through the distributor like water going through one of those whirlybird lawn sprinklers. If you have a crack somewhere in the whirlybird, it screws with the pattern and the running.

Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:38 pm

Tram wrote: I wonder if your cap is screwed. Have you tried another distributor cap? If you have a crack or a carbon tracing between the center coil contact and one or more of the plug contacts, it will fire all over the place. Remember basic physics: Electricity will always follow the path of LEAST resistance. Think of the ignition impulse going through the distributor like water going through one of those whirlybird lawn sprinklers. If you have a crack somewhere in the whirlybird, it screws with the pattern and the running.

I'm wondering about that whole distributor in general. it was rebuilt by Jim adney, but it had a breaker plate that clearly wasnt VW and wouldnt allow the distributor drive shaft lobes to line up with the points... ever. I'm wondering if the shaft itself is also to blame.

adriel, i know you're anal about the "right" distributor being on that car, but at this point I trust the internals about as far as I can throw them and the probably aren't right anyway, unless you count the outer shell which is largely for show at this point.

I have a known good distributor I want to try on it, and we'll go from there.

everyone: does the TDC, drive dog, and valves look correct that the settings I had it at?

adriel, if the above^^ statement is true, then there should be no need to fark with the drive dog at all.

Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:56 pm

JSMskater wrote: I'm wondering about that whole distributor in general. it was rebuilt by Jim adney, but it had a breaker plate that clearly wasnt VW and wouldnt allow the distributor drive shaft lobes to line up with the points... ever. I'm wondering if the shaft itself is also to blame.

New info! I didn't read about this in the original post above.

Clearly the distributor is a potential source of the problem, and if the plate isn't stock, the #1 firing position may be rotated any number of degrees.

This can't reverse the firing order, of course. But if you mistakenly THINK you are set for #1 to fire, but aren't actually close at all, maybe the reverse order gets it a little closer to the right position for at least a couple of cylinders, so it runs.

If the dog is right, the distributor is wrong. Replace the distributor. Doens't matter if the advance is wrong; as long as you know it's for a T3, and is dead stock, that will probably work well enough to confirm the problem with the current unit.

Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:01 pm

KTPhil wrote: JSMskater wrote: I'm wondering about that whole distributor in general. it was rebuilt by Jim adney, but it had a breaker plate that clearly wasnt VW and wouldnt allow the distributor drive shaft lobes to line up with the points... ever. I'm wondering if the shaft itself is also to blame.

New info! I didn't read about this in the original post above.

Clearly the distributor is a potential source of the problem, and if the plate isn't stock, the #1 firing position may be rotated any number of degrees.

This can't reverse the firing order, of course. But if you mistakenly THINK you are set for #1 to fire, but aren't actually close at all, maybe the reverse order gets it a little closer to the right position for at least a couple of cylinders, so it runs.

If the dog is right, the distributor is wrong. Replace the distributor. Doens't matter if the advance is wrong; as long as you know it's for a T3, and is dead stock, that will probably work well enough to confirm the problem with the current unit.

let me clarify, the breaker plate was wrong until I replaced it with a stock t3 one, which allowed us to get everything the way, visually, it ought to be. However at this point i don't trust any of it.

Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:12 pm

Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:21 pm

There are several styles of breaker plates. Just because it doesnt look like the original, it probably is OK. What opens the points is the cam, not the plate. The points are just mounted to the plate.
First, you need to find exactly where TDC #1 is. Do not depend on the marks on the impeller pulley. They can be in the wrong place. You have already discovered that someone has scratched marks on the othe side. Maybe the hole for the dowel pin has been redrilled.
To find TDC #!, You can do this by sticking a dowel or something into the spark plug hole. Find the top of stroke, and then be sure that the valves are not in overlap, on #1.
Now look where the distributor drive gear is pointing. If it is correct, set your distriburtor in , and see where the rotor is pointing. It should be pointing at the little mark. If it isnt, it can only be 180 off, as the pin in the drive dog only goes in 2 ways.
See where the marks on the pulley are. They should be up. If they are down, and the othe lug is up, then the impeller has been redrilled, and will have to be replaced.
BTW, when the engine is on TDC #1 or #3, the key in the crank that drives the fan and impeller, is at 9 o'clock as you face the front of the car.
Once you have TDC #1 figured out, static time the engine, and install the plug wires in the proper order, and the car should run.
In the one picture of the melted dipstick boot, where is his air intake boot.
That is one of the most important things in the cooling system on a T-3. You cannot drive a T-3 on the highway without that boot.

Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:08 am

Russ Wolfe wrote: There are several styles of breaker plates. Just because it doesnt look like the original, it probably is OK. What opens the points is the cam, not the plate. The points are just mounted to the plate.
First, you need to find exactly where TDC #1 is. Do not depend on the marks on the impeller pulley. They can be in the wrong place. You have already discovered that someone has scratched marks on the othe side. Maybe the hole for the dowel pin has been redrilled.
To find TDC #!, You can do this by sticking a dowel or something into the spark plug hole. Find the top of stroke, and then be sure that the valves are not in overlap, on #1.
Now look where the distributor drive gear is pointing. If it is correct, set your distriburtor in , and see where the rotor is pointing. It should be pointing at the little mark. If it isnt, it can only be 180 off, as the pin in the drive dog only goes in 2 ways.
See where the marks on the pulley are. They should be up. If they are down, and the othe lug is up, then the impeller has been redrilled, and will have to be replaced.
BTW, when the engine is on TDC #1 or #3, the key in the crank that drives the fan and impeller, is at 9 o'clock as you face the front of the car.
Once you have TDC #1 figured out, static time the engine, and install the plug wires in the proper order, and the car should run.
In the one picture of the melted dipstick boot, where is his air intake boot.
That is one of the most important things in the cooling system on a T-3. You cannot drive a T-3 on the highway without that boot.

sounds good russ, next time I get a chance to swing by Adriel's I'll see if I can do that whole procedure and find out wuts up once and for all.

as for the breaker plate, it was def not VW, maybe volvo or mercedes, and was clearly cut with a hacksaw or dremel to make fit. the issue with it was that when you mounted points on it, the cam lobes that open the breaker points never lined up with anything, it was trash. I used a stock VW plate out of an AD distributor and then things lined up as they should have, but I'm wondering now if other stuff in that distributor isn't VW. either way its a mood point, once I figure out where TDC is on his engine, whatever the case may be, I'm going to take my distributor out of my car, which i know is in perfect shape, and put it in to see if that helps.

Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:10 am

Joe, I'm the only other one who has worked on Adriels car. When I was there I did the valves and it ran like crap. I switched the plug wires 180 degrees the redid the valves and she fired up and ran until recentley. There was mention of the distributor part that goes on the drive dog possibly being on wrong, if that's even possible? I do agree that the dizzy is more suspect than the FI system.

Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:23 am

Russ, his intake book got sucked in when driving around for the Classic. Cheap repop.

Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:43 am

Halt! I see that the drive dog is in the wrong spot. The big side is to be near the generator, not the oil breather. This would explain why Jack and I had to turn the distributor 180 degrees.

Joe, stop attacking the distributor! I told you, I could not afford a breaker plate, so Mr. Adney used my old one. The internals are correct, and the shaft is part of the body. So, now it has the right breaker plate, it is perfect. I payed good money, and I am not about to toss it out of the engine.

New plan: reset the drive dog, set the static timing, set the valves, and replace the cap. I have at least six caps, so we should find a good one.

I did drive a bit without the boot, on several occasions, first because I did not know better, and second when it refused to stay on (engine is about an inch and a half too low). I learned that duct tape does not hold. :wink:

Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:57 am

Did you find a set of the rear donut hangers to get your engine hung properly? Who has an extra set? [-o<