TheSamba.com :: View topic - Opinions

Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:19 pm

I've read a bazillion posts on heater channels, and I still go out into the garage and stare - scratching my head.

Here's the short story.
Rebuilding my 56 Oval (was sitting on a 70 pan). Car sat for 7 years outside under a car cover at my parents house while I was in college. Got it back under my control in 2000, but engine disintegrated #2 and #3 exhaust springs. So it sat (but this time, in a garage).

Fast forward to this year. Finally convince the wife to let me start working on it again. The more I uncovered, the more nasty I found. To the point where the body is off the chassis on saw horses and I keep discovering rot. So I've cut away and got all new metal where to body and pan meet. I've tacked in a new driver hinge pillar, new wheelhouse, rear crossmembers and working on heater channels. There is where I'd welcome opinions:

I ordered Dansk (supposedly the good ones) heater channels from CIP1. The looked ok - very sturdy, etc. But my problem is this (working the driver side). If I get the heater channel lined up in the rear quarter area, the door jamb areas line up great, but up front around the firewall, it is at least 1/2" off away from the wheelhouse. If I align up the front to be decent with the wheelhouse, the rear quarter is 1/2" inward from where it wants to be. The body was braced with welded in 1" square tubing before anything was cut out.

Here's what I've done so far. Ran a center line down the center of the car, and measured from the front door jamb area (which I had replaced with the nice piece from Wolfsburg West (expensive one). It is less than 1/8" off. So I believe the hinge piller is in good dimensional alignment.

I got to thinking last night and measured across the door jamb area front and rear, then setup my CIP1 heater channels to equal those dimensions. I then measured where the Napoleon Hat holes were against the original 70 pan holes. The heater channels were 3/4" too wide at those holes. Thus, these things are actually pieces of dung. See the following link for photos/dimensions:
http://www.steven-laura.net/Steven/VW/HeaterChannels

So here's where I'm at now: I went ahead and ground down the crappy black paint on the heater channels and layed a coat of weldable primer on them tonight. I'm planning on tacking in the heater channels around the rear quarter and front hinge pillar, then leave the area around the wheel house free. Then, finish cutting out the passenger side heater channel, and test fit / weld in the passenger side the same. I made a jig of the chassis Napoleon Hat with spare 1" square tubing and welded on 4 bolts to match those hole locations. I will use this to modify the front sections of the heater channels to match this jig. This will also require extensive modification to the new front firewall (as the cut outs for the heater channels are way off.

More pictures at:
http://www.steven-laura.net/Steven/VW
Obviously later progress is closer to where I am now.

Opinions? Thanks a bunch in advance.
-Steven

Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:48 pm

Steven,

You might need to set the body on the pan to acheive better alignment. I looked at the pix you have and you have done a great job so far. It looks to me like you have covered your bases pretty good. I work in a bodyshop full time and I can't tell you how many times the "factory" parts need a little help with a good fit. I would try to vise grip the front side panels to the channel and install some screws to hold it in place. You can always slot some holes to make bolts fit the napolean hat.

Steve

Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:38 pm

Thanks for the input Steve. Especially seeing the work you've done on yours...that is some good advice. I don't think I'll be able to drop the body on the pan for a test fit with stuff tack welded, as I've removed the passenger side floor pan already - and haven't ordered floor replacements yet.

I did order some Clecos that are supposed to arrive tomorrow. I'm sure they will *help*, but I'm having doubts that they will have enough clamping force to hold stuff pulling those heater channels in 3/8" on each side in the front.

I think that I will have to pie cut the angled portion, allow it to get into the correct position, then weld in a patch.

Slotting the Napoleon Hat is a good idea. I thought of that, and dismissed it a while back. Maybe too pre-mature. I think I'll get the channels tacked in around the door posts on both sides, and revisit that thought. Sounds a lot easier than pie cutting the fronts of the heater channels.

The heater channels are a disappointment, but the firewall is just as bad. It's overall dimensions are to spec with the original (I remember you pointing this out to measure up before). The problem area is the cut-outs for the heater channels. I've already cut away some of the bottom portion of the firewall where around the heater channel area to get it to fit. It think I'll have to do a bit more as well.

Seriously, I've scratched my head on this for 3 weeks at least. Going out to the garage, shoving here, clamping there. I should have spec measured it out like I did lastnight from the start.

It just feels a bit more of winging it that I had originally hoped for. I do like the fabrication process of it though (for now).

Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:45 am

I've been lucky (;)) that my napoleon hat and rear cross members needed replacing as well so welded them, along with my heater channels, together while laying on the bare pan. This way it was assured everything was where it was supposed to be.
Now that the body is back on the pan, everything lines up nicely.

At first I cut one of the channels out and tried dry fitting it but found it did not want to align well at all.

Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:00 am

Hi,

PM me, I have dimensions you might like to have (factory issued).

Make sure you tell me in the PM that it relates to this post and do include a email address I can send them to as an attachment.

dave

Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:45 am

I had the exact same issues with my CIP1 heater channels. I bought the "econo" channels without heat tubes since my car will not have an internal combustion engine.

I wish, in hindsight, that I had bolted the heater channels to the pan, then lowered the body onto them to tack weld them in. I lined mine up exactly as you have suggested - at the rear of the car. The front of the heater channels have a 90 degree down bend where they are supposed to meet the front "firewall", but they are exactly 1/2" too short.

I'm going to bend that flat, then re-bend it to line up with the firewall, and use seam seal to seal it up.

Once the body is lowered onto the pan, I found that I was able to grind out and enlarge the holes in the pan by 1/8" to the front of the car, and the body mount holes in the rear package tray area by 1/8" to the rear of the car. Doing this made all the bolt holes line up. I figure my axle center lines might be 1/8" off on both the front and rear of the car - too far towards the rear of the car - but I'm hoping that will not be noticeable when the project is finished.

See some photos on my blog at http://65veedub.blogspot.com

I think this must be pretty typical for car restoration work. Ever watched an episode of Spike TV's MuscleCar? I'm trying not to be too worried about it and just fix it and move forward. No way I'm cutting them out and doing it over!

Michael

Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:53 am

Steven,
Now that I looked at your pictures .... well, our issues are a little different. My dimension problems were front - to - back, not side - to - side like yours.

The front inner wheel well metal is pretty flexible and you should be able to push with the wooden handle of a hammer, flex it in toward the heater channel, and tack it.

I haven't hung the doors back on my car. I may be in for a nasty surprise with the door gaps! ... sheesh, I hope not.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:26 pm

Thanks for the posts guys.
Michael, I didn't realize you had posted on this tread (I just got the PM). I looked through your blog. Good work man. I may still be off front to back too, but I've just tacked in the rear crossmembers so they are very flexable in their position right now.

Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:53 pm

Thanks Dave for the dimensionals. I measured a few of them up (door areas), and they are spot on.

I got bold and tonight, I tack welded the firewall in place. 5-6 tacks across the top where the gas tank would sit, and 3-4 on each side of the main firewall panel. I left the curved lower portions free for the moment, to give me some room to play when putting the heater channels back up.

The firewall made the front feel much more solid now. I feel good about it. (crossing fingers).

Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:24 pm

In my situation I struggled and struggled to get the heater channels lined up correctly and could never get it fitted right.

I had already welded in the firewall section so I ended up tearing it out and buying a new one to explore a different approach.

I built a "box" consisting of the firewall, heater channels, and the rear crossmembers. Once I had the box built I was able to get everything lined up...... I think this may be the method that coW explained above, here are some pictures....

Your situation may be a little different but I thought I would throw this out there for ideas. :)

Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:42 pm

Newman25, that is exactly how I did mine. I got that idea from a colorful rebuild book on beetles but I can't remember the name of it. The entire assembly fit so well to the body that I lifted, adjusted, clamped, and welded the whole assembly myself while the body was still on blocks.

Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:06 am

ocbugger wrote: Newman25, that is exactly how I did mine. I got that idea from a colorful rebuild book on beetles but I can't remember the name of it.

I got the idea I think from the same book... "How To Restore A Volkswagen Beetle" by Jim Tyler :lol:

It is definitely a great book to reference, I would recommend it to anyone doing a "pan-off" restoration. I would also recommend the Bug Me Videos, they were excellent describing where to drill and cut when replacing the heater channels.

Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:38 pm

Newman25 wrote: In my situation I struggled and struggled to get the heater channels lined up correctly and could never get it fitted right.

I had already welded in the firewall section so I ended up tearing it out and buying a new one to explore a different approach.

I built a "box" consisting of the firewall, heater channels, and the rear crossmembers. Once I had the box built I was able to get everything lined up...... I think this may be the method that coW explained above, here are some pictures....

Your situation may be a little different but I thought I would throw this out there for ideas. :)

Yup, I did the exact same thing.

Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:23 pm

Fantastic idea, whether from your own or from a book. I sorta wished I went this route from the beginning, but the first thing I did was remove the passenger side pan half...so it wouldn't have helped me much.

I got bold again and tack welded the driver heater channel to the rear quarter panel, and around the hinge pillar. I am 80% sure my problem is the aftermarket (CIP1) heater channels are twisted slightly up front. I cut a relief out of the inner flange right where the heater channel bends towards the firewall after the hinge, My plan is to heat that portion up and torque it with my floor jack and some floor mounted hold. I need it to twist about 1/2 inch clockwise to be perfect.

I also cut/banged the passenger heater channel out and I've been beating the three lower passenger door hinge screws like a madman. Lots of PB and a lot of wacks. I'm hoping the passenger door will come out tonight.

Thanks for the replies guys.