TheSamba.com :: View topic - What kind of power should a 1600DP "have"...?!

Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:34 pm

In my 1970 standard I have a 1600DP 34pict3 setup. I've set the timing to 30º BTDC at 3500+ RPM and it settles to around 8º BTDC at idle. Idle rocks around 875rpm and the car starts great, drives around town fabulous, etc. Overall I am pleased with the reliability of the car as the only time it left me stranded was at my local mechanic, when my starter died when I wanted to show him the bad starter noise, LOL.

(Edit for added info -- car had a .006" valve adjustment recently, the car runs a pertronix pointsless ignition ... so there is nothing to adjust there, and the spark plugs and oil are new within a few hundred miles too)

A few weekends ago we ran the car at 70+ MPH for a good straight 5+ hour drive from Cleveland, OH to Niagara Falls, Canada. It would cruise on the expressway nicely when it was flat, but when I would be going up a small 10-20º grade uphill it seemed to peak at 60-65mph and top out. Granted I attributed that to perhaps a car with 2 adults, a roof rack with a coke cooler + wicker basket causing wind resistance, etc.

Today, we took the car for a nice jaunt around town and out into the country. Most of the roads out at our destination were 45-50mph posted, so we did 5mph over the limit most of the time. After over a half-hour of driving the car was definitely warm, and I "think" it felt more sluggish at that point. What was particularly annoying was that there were some relatively steep hills (30º grade perhaps?) and the car wouldn't go past 50mph up those. At that speed I was obviously in 4th gear, based on using the tick-marks on the speedo.

Does this sound about right for the power level of a stock motor/setup like mine? I've read a few posts about people driving 70-75mph on the expressway without fault, and I can do that on level ground. But here in Ohio we have sweeping hills (not mountains like West Virginia, but not flat like Arizona either). What do you folks think? Around town she scoots fine, and always great when the motor isn't fully warmed up. Am I just dealing with the fact that, like my plate says, it is UBRSLO? :) Or is there something else perhaps I am missing?

Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:49 pm

You're correct, that roof rack with the stuff in it, that really affects your aerodynamics. I'd try to pull one of those hills again with just you in the car and nothing bolted to the top of the car and I think you'll notice a difference.

I think you are overestimating those grades. Or wait, you used degrees... I'm used to thinking in terms of percentages. Really anything over 6% is considerable at highway speeds.

Was your latest drive with or without anything on the roof, by the way?

Do you have any idea if your tranny in your 1970 is the original with the 4.12:1 final drive, or perhaps a later one with a 3.88:1 diff? Those can make a difference in the power at freeway speeds.

It does sound like maybe a little lacking on power, but not extremely slow. I live in an area where there are no flat roads at all, and the 1600DP in my baja, if it's not windy, can pull most interstate hills at 65, (add wind in, and well, forget 65! Make that 50-55 in 3rd gear) Thats on the hills here on the plains, steeper mountain grades are another thing altogether... more like 45-55 in 3rd gear on those. I have taller tires on the back of my baja that gear the early tranny up to something similar to later bugs, I figured it out once but need to do it again because I can't find my notes on it.

Have you had a compression test done on your bug lately? That might tell you if the engine is getting a bit on the weak side.

-Andy

Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:55 pm

Andy,
Thanks for the lengthy and very helpful comparison and reply. I think you are right that most of the freeway hills were <30º angle off the horizon max... but it is hard to say. I'd like to say I knew for sure but I don't have one of those handle little globe balls on my dash. Remember those compas things that also showed you grade? Ahh those were the days.. I bet truckers still use them.

Anyhow, I digress.

Yes my car is currently driven with an empty roof rack. But the rack is still there. But its fairly thin and I doubt it causes much strife to the car. It really is fairly quiet even at 50+ MPH with an empty rack, so as you said, the items on the rack cause issue but an empty rack should matter not.

Not sure of the final drive. I bought the car 2 months ago and the previous owner gave me receipts of a rebuild on the motor some 4,500 miles ago now. Hence I haven't bothered with a compression check, figuring that wasn't worth my time if the car had rebuild receipts. And like I said, around town she drives fine, although the warmer it gets the more sluggish I "think" it is getting. I say "think" because lets face it, we all like to test our cars with our well calibrated butt dyno, but who knows for sure! :)

Ari

Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:06 pm

What about going down some of those "steep" hills, did you try to max the car out? I'm guilty of that... :twisted:

Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:30 pm

pfffft who hasnt :lol:

Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:48 pm

The top speed on a late model 1600 was 81 mph per the owner's manual. So going up a hill with another adult and all the gear you mention is bound to slow you down some. I'd say 60-65 seems reasonable on a moderate grade. As long as the engine doesn't run hot and drives well around town and on flats I'd say you're engine is just fine!

Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:22 pm

How is your compression? That will effect the torque going uphill.

-jeffrey

Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:05 pm

jhicken wrote: How is your compression? That will effect the torque going uphill.

-jeffrey

Shaka wrote: Not sure of the final drive. I bought the car 2 months ago and the previous owner gave me receipts of a rebuild on the motor some 4,500 miles ago now. Hence I haven't bothered with a compression check, figuring that wasn't worth my time if the car had rebuild receipts.

But .. perhaps that is something I should look into.

Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:33 pm

It wouldn't hurt. One other thing, even an empty luggage rack will effect your performance.

-jeffrey

Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:20 am

Hey Shaka,

Another Clevelander here! I posted this yesterday, maybe it will help. I bought my Bug 3 months ago and it acts similar to yours. I got on I-76W from Seville and took the new ramp to I-71 north [heading to N Royalton]. I had to keep it to the floor to make the hill coming off that ramp and up into Montville. Once over the Contineltal Divide, it did great! Perhaps I should do a compression check, also:

Took my '69 on its first freeway drive yesterday. My girlfriend and I did a 100-mile round trip from home to my parents' place for Independence Day. I have been adjusting and tuning and fixing things for two months and FINALLY a great drive.

The car didn't miss a beat. Zoomed right up to 65 mph and except for some hills, I had no problem keeping up with traffic.

It is amazing the difference a correct valve, points and timing adjustment will make.

Thanks to everyone on here for your help & quick answers to questions!

Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:39 am

Drive the same hills with the same adult inside the car without the roof rack on and I bet you will feel a difference. I read another Samba member reported he got 2-3 MPG better when he removed the roof rack. Aerodynamics really start to make a big difference after 50 MPH.

Although you never mentioned it, I bet you will also feel a difference in power if you and your friend took the same hilly cruise with all the windows rolled up. Believe it or no that also makes a huge difference at highway speeds.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:47 am

I live in a mountaneous area, and my stock 1600dp (with around 5k on it) maxes out at 60-65mph going up the really long steep grades, with just me in the car and no roof rack. Flat stretches, I can top 80 with no problem. I'd say your engine is "working as intended". :wink:

Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:04 am

We are dealing with decades old economy cars here, not muscle cars!

Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:14 am

I think that someone forgot to tell this guy.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt4dNrkezOE

Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:33 am

fastinradford wrote: I think that someone forgot to tell this guy.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt4dNrkezOE

I don't think that Bug was quite stock. :)

Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:05 pm

my vdub ran 70 miles a day for 3 years with cracked heads, the hole time doin 70-85 mph up the i5 here in socal and that is a stock 1600dp w/kadron carbs, in a stock 74 standard. your car sounds like mine w/out the crabs, just make sure u dont over heat it.