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Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:01 pm

Over in the split bus forum there was a discussion on what distributor is correct for a 40 hp bus.

here is a link to that discussion:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=306180&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The discussion also carried into what vacuum line was correct. I contributed and then thought it might be useful to start a thread just on vacuum cans and their lines. So to start things off here is a pic of a disassembled vacuum can off of a 113 series distributor.

I will try to get some pics up of the various vac cans in a day or two to help get things rolling.

Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:22 am

My Robert Bosch catalog from 1976 lists more than 30 different vacuum cans for VW. most of the cans do not have a readily identifiable part number. When I first started rebuilding distributors about 175 ago, I used whatever can came with the distributor. I did not realize how easily and how frequently the cans were changed out (sorry :cry: ). This is surprising because most vacuum cans are still good. the moving parts like the advance plate dry out and freeze up more often than the can fails.

The first vacuum can that I will cover is the common one used on 36 horse power engines. It has a unique shape compared to later VW cans. It has a threaded vacuum port and a large nut which is really a cover. The cover hides and adjustment screw that is set at the factory but made accessable for adjustment later. I have not played with this adjustment much. Part # 113

There is a date stamp on the mounting base that gives you a clue to its manufacture. It is the tyypical number and letter stamping used by Bosch. The code can be interpreted using data available elsewhere on this site. Many of these vac cans have dried out after so many years.

Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:37 am

The next two vacuum cans are odd old birds. The first is the "VW" vacuum can. The whole distributor was manufactured by Garbe Lahmeyer starting in 1955 according to my copy of Progressive Refinements. they must have had a licensing agreement with VW because the VW logo and VW part numbers appear all over the pieces of these distributors. They were much more common in the early sixties and despite the 211 part numbers these were often found on beetles as well as buses. The vac can part number on this one is 211 905 271 A I have also seen a B version. These units are most easily distinguishable by the bulbous protrusion found at the vacuum port pipe base.

The next vacuum can appaears to be a transition between the 36 hp and the 40 hp cans. It is attached to a ZV/PAU 4 R 1. The best I have been able to learn from this distributor is that it was used on 40 horse engines destined for places other than North America. There was also a comment that it might have been a 40 hp "bastard" bus distributor. It's distinguishing characteristic is the threaded vacuum pipe. It's dimmensions match the later 40 hp vac cans.

The steel line that leads from the distributor is very short you can see the flex line stop in the picture.

Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:49 am

The 40 hp vacuum can can be a little tricky to distinguish from the later big can units. I have learned to look for the two mounting screw holes on the left side of the can. These can still be found NOS from time to time. the cans were used on the R 2, R 5, and R 6 cast iron big cap, 80 mm Bosch distributors. Part # 015

Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:06 pm

Below you will find the vacuum can found on the 111 series of distributors. These cans are small and more round than the later that are more saucer shaped. Another feature is a restricted vacuum port at the can, it's a very small hole. They can (and have) been installed on later distributors. The only modification is to file a larger mounting hole in the right hand mounting plate. I think the modification was carried out in the past out of necessity or ignorance or perhaps experimentation. These vacuum cans were designed to work with the 28 PICT series of carbs. The distributors that should have this can are:

VW #: 111-905-205 with the letter suffix N,J, L, M and the earliest alluminum bodied distributor the ZV/JU 4 R3.

These distributors were run on 1964 and 1965 beetle and bus. the engine size was the late 1200cc 40 horse and the 1500cc. Part # 016

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In addition 131 905 205 with no letter suffix used this can. The 131 distributor is a bus only distributor despite its part number.

Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:22 pm

This vacuum can is used on what is probably the most popular of the single vacuum distributors; the 113 905 205 M and T units. These are popular because they are the closest to the stock 1600 single and dual port engines that many of us still are running. It can be distinguished by its large saucer shape and can be seperated from the other large single vac cans by the elongated almost oval shape of the condenser support. the others in this series of distributors use a round condenser support hole. The application was 1968-1970 beetle and bus with the 1500 and 1600cc engines.

note the elongated condenser support hole in this pic. Part # 024

Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Cool pics. I've never seen a factory vacuum advance canister taken apart like that before. Can they even be put back together after that though?

Anyway, here I'll go and throw out some of my photos.

Here's a comparision of the 66-70 style vacuum can with the big cap "fat boy" distributor's caninster:

Okay on the topic of Vacuum Lines, here are some photos.

The mid 1962 and 1963 setup for the vacuum line:

Here's how it looked in 1964 after they dropped the loop type pipe and added the metal fuel line

Speaking of the metal fuel line and the metal loop vacuum line, here are some closeups of the ones on my 62:

And from quite a while ago, here's a compilation photo I put together, with some small images of various setups. On the top are the metal lines shown in the above pics, but as mounted on the car, then there's the retrofit type metal loop I have on my baja. In the middle are a couple of images of 70's dual vacuum (SVDA) canister lines. On the bottom are shown, right is the 1966 setup and right is the 1965, images out of factory manuals.

-Andy

Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:12 pm

glutamodo wrote: Here's how it looked in 1964 after they dropped the loop type pipe and added the metal fuel line

I thought the metal fuel line came sometime mid-'62?

In the last year I've found two nice metal fuel lines, but am still on the lookout for a looped vacuum line. So far I've only come across a very rusty one. I dipped it in acid for a while, and now it's not rusty, but the pitting is pretty serious.

Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:18 pm

glutamodo wrote:
I've looked at quite a few big cap distributors and none have a vacuum can where the vacuum connection comes out at 9'oclock like that.

They are all like your other photo where it comes out more like 10:30:
glutamodo wrote:

Were those cans used for only a short time? I wonder if the change coincided with the change to a non-looped vacuum line.

Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:57 am

Any particular reason for the metal fuel line? Maybe it reduced the chances for vapor locking? It looks like it attaches to the carb and fuel pump with short lengths of rubber line. Seems that just doubled the chances for a leak (four connections instead of two)...

How about the line from the fuel pump that exits the front engine tin? Should that be metal as well?

Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:30 am

You mean the one that enters through the tin? Yes it's metal. Screwed into the pump up until they went to that one-way valve thing in MY 1965.

Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:13 pm

Woreign wrote: Any particular reason for the metal fuel line? Maybe it reduced the chances for vapor locking? It looks like it attaches to the carb and fuel pump with short lengths of rubber line. Seems that just doubled the chances for a leak (four connections instead of two)...

I have no idea what its intended purpose was. Whatever reason they had, it must not have been a very strong one, since it died pretty quickly. This leads me to conclude that the reason VW added it is the same reason I went out looking to get one: they look cool (and also it's correct for my car).

Sure, it's two extra connection points, but I don't worry about that. I've got a close eye on my fuel hoses. I'm more worried about the brass carburetor inlet falling out than I am the fuel hose leaking. But it does remind me that I need to go to the hardware store and see if they have spring clamps in stock yet.

Anyway, if you're really paranoid about fuel leaks, go with a 36HP. All fuel line connections inside the engine compartment are threaded. Yum. Lately I've been considering making an adapter breastplate for using a 36HP in later bugs.

Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:44 pm

I don't use hose clamps on my 62 bug fuel hoses, with stock clothbound German fuel hose... I find in this climate the extra stress makes them dry rot a lot faster. (I use clamps in my baja and have witnessed that firsthand many times) But on my white 62 bug, I've not had any serious issues from not using clamps.

I know the first reason the metal line between the fuel pump and curb was discontinued was because of the fuel line check valve they put in in 1965. (below) In 1966 they built that into the pump so they could have brought the metal line back, but I guess they thought they didn't need it after that. Me I just like how that metal line looks.

Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:59 pm

So to summarize based partially on the contributions of the above posts here is a photo of several vacuum lines used in the mid 1950's through the late 1960's.

The photo below shows from left to right: the 36 horse power line used from 1955 until the end of the 1960 model year. The more common line used from 1964 onwards, the retrofit line supplied as a replacement part at dealerships, and two looped lines one large loop the other a smaller loop used from mid 1962 until 1963.

Begs the question what did the line look like from 1961 until mid 1962?

Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:07 pm

I have looked at more than 30, 40 hp distributors lately and I do not have a single unit that has the vac line at anything other than the 10 o'clock position.

Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:08 pm

61-62, I think it was a vinyl hose.

From
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/61changes.php

Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:11 pm

And that vinyl line did not last very long. We replaced a lot of them back in the 60's.
BTW, if anybody needs any material to make vacuum diaphrams, or fuel pump diaphrams, I have a roll of diaphram material that weighs about 150 lbs. I can send about a 3 square ft piece for the price of the postage.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:31 pm

Here is a picture of a 113 series vacuum can that has been repaired/rebuilt. I did not do the work. The can functions just fine. It is aesthetically challenged. Only a monkey wrencher would appreciate its appearance.

Reminds me of the 113 M distributor I have been running on my 1600 dp 1965 bus. It functions very well but is not pleasing to the eye. Scratched housing with some pitting and the vacuum can has several minor dents. I would not be able to sell it because of its appearance so I chose to run it in my own vehicle.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:37 pm

On a semi-related note, combining a Brosal 34 PICT carb with a 1969 vac only distributor will cause hesitation and other problems. Adding a "vac delay" with cure this nicely.
Vac delays look like check valves and were common on early '80's cars as part of the emissions system.

Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:57 pm

Here is a table that some may find helpful when trying to match vacuum cans to distributors and then to carburetors. If you find an error pm me and I will edit the change.

Vac can # 113 used on the 36 hp beetle distributors from 1955 until 1960. Mates to the Solex 28 PCI carburetor. 36 hp.

Vac can # 015 used on the big cap 40 hp cast iron distributors ZV PAU 4R: 2,4,5,6. Large can with two mounting holes on the left side of the can. Mates to the 28 PICT and 28 PICT 1 carburetors. 40 hp.

Vac can # 016 used on the following alluminum bodied distributors ZV JU 4R3, 131 905 205, 111 905 205: K,L,M,N. Small round can. Mates to the 28 PICT 1 carburetor. 40 hp

Vac can # 017 used on the 113 series distributors suffix: K,L. Large single vac can with round slot for condenser mounting. Mates to the 30 PICT carburetor. 1300-1500cc

Vac can # 024 used on 113 series distributors suffix: M,T. large round can with oval slot for condenser mounting. Mates to the 30 PICT 1,2 and 3. 1500-1600cc.