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Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:58 pm

I cannot locate any indication of the thermostat on my recently acquired '64 beetle. Looked between Cyl 1 & 2 and 3 & 4. Did that engine have one :?:

Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:09 pm

My engine (1200) is a 64 and had a thermostat located between 1 and 2. Maybe someone removed the thermo from the engine before you got the car.

Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:15 pm

They were often removed, as recommended by John Muir in his VW book. Modern thinking is that they are necessary even in warm climates and should be retrofitted of removed. Especially be sure the flaps in the fabn housing are still there and propped open in the meantime. They direct air, and don't merely shut it off, and should be installed. Ebay and Samba ads often show them, so you can get them with patience.

Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:26 pm

KTPhil wrote: They were often removed, as recommended by John Muir in his VW book.

I must have read that book a dozen times from cover to cover in my early beetle frenzy, and while he had a lot of strong opinions on timing, automatic chokes and other things, I don't remember his ever recommending permanent removal of the thermostat. If anything I recall he had very detailed instructions on their removal, re-installation and adjustment as part of his engine procedures.

Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:45 pm

Page 159 of the 1972 edition:

"Here are a few remarks about the cooling air control system, as overhaul time is the time to think about whether you want it or not. If you live in a cold climate, like high in the mountains, up North or back East, this assembly (the air control ring in the fan housing along with its associated equipment) is maybe a good system. I take them all completely out and recommend this practice. ... The same thing goes for the new type of cooling air control in the 1965 and on engines which have flaps inside the fan housing."

He does add in the 1971 notes that the later flap system is more reliable and says it's okay to leave it installed. Maybe you have only read the later edition. The one I cited is old enough that it is only the Bug, Bus and Ghia--No T3s or T4s, no late Buses.

Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:58 pm

I have a few good used thermostats in stock again.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:23 am

My 65 1200 40hp had the thermostat missing. After doing a lot of reading, the concensus seemed to be that VW engines should have them. Aids in proper warm up and VW engineers put them there for a reason. Not just for the heater's meager warm air output.
What I noted was that a quicker warmup lessens the need for a rich mixture for more than a minute or two. That extra rich mixture washes the cylinders of lubrication and gets into the engine oil.
Anyway, I am very happy with how my engine starts and warms up and runs smooth with the thermostat. And so far this has all been spring and summer driving.
I think in the big frenzy in the 70's to swap engines, hot rod, customize etc... these parts were seen as unnecessary and chucked out on rebuilds.
For those that worry, even when the engine is cold there is a lot of cooling air pouring over the cylinders and heads on startup.
I read the Muir book and seem to remember the only part he despised was the automatic choke.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:17 am

Wow, that quote from the 1972 edition is interesting. No wonder people took so many of those out.

I bought my copy of Muir's book new in 2002. So they must have deleted that advice in later editions.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:33 am

I used the Muir book and a previous post here on Samba and I cannot even locate the bolt hole that would hold the thermostat bracket. I cannot feel anything in the fan shroud resembling a "flap". Also, the Muir book says "...on the RIGHT side between #1 & #2. ...". Shouldn't that be the LEFT side?

If someone has a picture of the installed location, and the "flaps" I would really appreciate it :(

Thanx

Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:57 am

See the Blue Bentley ('66-'69 is similar for previous years), Chapter 2 "Engine," page 4, part # 18. Don't know what page this would be on for earlier year model Bentley manuals. Then see Section 4, pages 12-14.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:05 am

kabobbit wrote: Also, the Muir book says "...on the RIGHT side between #1 & #2. ...". Shouldn't that be the LEFT side?

Thanx

Standing at the rear of your VW looking at it....Left is Left, Right is Right, Front is Front, and Rear is Rear...1 and 2 would be Right side...

Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:13 am

If you live in northern Nevada, go to Bugorama in Sacramento (late Sept). If you live near Las Vegas, go to the Bug In there. Ask someone to show you their thermostat. Hmmmm, maybe you'd better not just bluntly ask another man to show you his thermostat. Some guys will take that all wrong. Both events are listed here on the Samba. If you cannot wait that long, track down a local VW club and ask around.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:34 am

kabobbit wrote:
If someone has a picture of the installed location, and the "flaps" I would really appreciate it :(

Well, you won't have flaps in your year engine, which is an early 64. The flaps didn't start til very early in the 1965 model year production. What you'll have is this big old ring that blocks off your cooling fan intake.

These are the parts for that setup as seen outside the car:

.........................................

Installed, this "throttle ring" looks like this:

-Andy

Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:14 am

Oddly, Muir himself in the old versions contradicts his advice on thermostats. This might have also contributed to his change of heart.

In the Second Thoughts appendix (if I remember right, might have been in the '70 Changes appendix), he includes the story of how a somewhat plugged heat riser slowed warmup, which built up carbon in the heat riser, which plugged, which caused raw gas in the cylinder, which built up carbon, which caused overheating, which caused a rod bearing to burn within 10K miles of the rebuild.

And I was thinking... wouldn't a missing thermostat cause the same thing?

Perhaps the early ring type was more failure-prone, with a hard-to-get-to adjustment that could easily slip out without warning and burn it up? The late flap style seems a little more secure in its adjustment and doesn't pose such a risk.

So he took out that advice, but after bazillions of copies had already been sold and the bad advice disseminated.

In any case, next time my T3 motor is out, I'll install it back in mine. And I live in SoCal.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:50 am

I find the air-control-ring thermostat set up easier to check for correct operation than the later kind. All I have to do is look behind the shroud to verify it is working.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:44 am

I like the way if you are in the garage or near the car after running it for a while you can hear the flap shut. The first couple of times I was wondering what the hell that noise was......
The thermo STUD not bolt hole is on the bottom of the block on the right side between one and two. If its not put one in there. I and many others reccomend running the thermo and flaps. Be sure to test the thermostat and make sure it expands.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:12 pm

Thank you guys very much for the advice, pictures, comments, etc. It is obvious that the ring, thermostat and everything connected with it has been removed from my engine.

The drawing "Worms Eye View" on page 89 of the 2/2008 edition of Muir's book indicates #1 & #2 on the LEFT. That had me confused, or should I say MORE confused.

Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:32 pm

you're welcome for the pictures. You don't see that style thermostat very often anymore. It's kind of a pain to install which is why I left if off my 62 and why was able to take those off-the-car photos a while back. I've meant to put it back on there but never got around to it.

The worm's eye view is correct. Hold the book over your head and look up like a worm would, and it's correct. :wink: