TheSamba.com :: View topic - Need QUICK HELP

Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:33 pm

So this guy has an 83 diesel window van with a 5 speed with a 1.6NA. Engine smokes. I don't care, I want it for conversion parts for my Westy. He tells me the 5 speed has a granny first gear. What is the story on the 5 speed tranny?????

I would want it ONLY for the parts to make a diesel conversion of my 85 automatic Westy. So all those cool conversion bits and the trans sound interesting to me.

If I were to just buy the conversion bits, what would one pay?

What about the "5 speed" which really seems not very useful. Is it stock? Can I change gears in this 5 speed with out breaking the bank?

I will want a 1.9 Turbo something in my already slow Westy. I LOVE my A4 Jetta TDI and my NB TDI. I can live with slow, as long as I can go 70 or so I am happy.

Guy wants $1500. I sure don't want to pay that for an almost dead van. What's fair consideing all I want is the conversion bits.

I normally would use the SEARCH, but I don't have the time and I will see the van tomorrow.

Wadda say you oil burners?????? What do you thnk????

TIA for fast responses,
Walt

Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:22 am

Walter,

Can't sleep, did some searching ~ cut 'n paste from another thread on adding a Turbo to a NA diesel, which meandered on to thoughts on the diesel tranny:

"The Vanagon Air-cooled engine's tranny (stock) is geared a little taller than the OEM diesel tranny and the Waterboxer tranny.

R&P 4.57 with a .852 4th gear (Tranny that's mounted to the AC Engine)
R&P 4.83 with a .85 4th gear (Tranny that's mounted to the Diesel engine)
R&P 5.428 with a .765 5th gear (Tranny (rare) that's mounted to the Diesel engine...... note this is the 5-speed. But, the end result is no better than the other combinations.

There are some trannys with a 4.86 R&P."

Edit: Here's the original link (credit where credit is due...)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=284040&highlight=diesel+tranny

Sounds like the diesel 5 speed won't be all that useful...

Best,

Lanval

Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:10 am

pay a G

Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:45 am

The pedal cluster parts, shift linkage etc would be useful along with the engine carrier bars, 50 degree bellhousing, and so on. The diesel vanagon also has the battery in the engine compartment. The battery tray could be transplanted. So the donor van would have everything you need to do the conversion from the Vanagon end. Not only are you converting the engine in this case but the transmission as well. Both are formidable jobs and require quite a few bits. Don't sweat the ratios. I agree a grand would be worth it. I used a transmission from an 80 AC on my conversion. It had the tallest ring and pinion for now.

Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 pm

I wonder if a 4 speed Ring and Pinion can be put in a 5 speed box?

Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:59 pm

r39o wrote: I wonder if a 4 speed Ring and Pinion can be put in a 5 speed box?

No, they are different!

Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:15 pm

IMO even the $1500 would be just about worth it, if you buy all the bits and pieces you need separately you'll be out more than $1500. I saw a "kit" on ebay a while back that had all the diesel bits you need for a swap, but no trans or any of the other bits you need to lose the auto trans, it was up as a buy it now for $900 IIRC, it sold in a couple days.

Sure, you can track down all the bits and pieces separately, but how much is your time worth? And its annoying to pay for shipping 14 different times for all the various pieces you need....

Also if you buy the whole van you can sell it to a junkyard when done and recoup some costs, and get all sorts of interior trim bits, etc...

Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:25 pm

Switching an automatic gas to stick 5 speed diesel may not seem like much, but you work front to rear to do it, it seems.

It is going to cost me about $3500 or so for the an ALH 1.9TDI complete from the guy up the coast in LA. Cost is about the same for any 1.9 "T" engine. Just how much effort do I want to put forth?

I am looking right around $5K for engine and parts van - ballpark.

Then I still have to figure out some wiring, various plumbing, inte-rcooler and, I think, exhaust, I believe.

I wonder what a 5 speed R&P are going to cost, as I know I will hate the way the transmission works.

Plus I may upgrade the injectors like I did for my NB TDI.

And and and.....

For a weekend tent on wheels, I am not sure it is worth all that is needed to do it.

I have an firmish appointment to look closely at the van, which seems to have a bad head given it is smoking gray with steam. Never know, I may just fix it and drive it as a used 1.6NA is in the under $1K range. I am sure the kids will learn to love a van like that as daddy will really not care what they do back there as I would be too busy smiling as I drive.

(But, I still have a nice 94 EJ22 Suby waiting on a pallette too....sigh)

Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:29 pm

From what I've seen there are (4) 5-speed R+Ps. 5.43, 4.86, 4.83 and 4.57.

I would not retrofit the battery to the engine compartment for a couple reasons. The heat is bad for the battery and the real estate is QUITE valuable IMO especially if considering installing an oil to air cooler or air conditioning compressor.

If I'm not mistaken the diesel vanagon oil pan will not bolt to the ALH motor, only the 1Z and AHU. That might put a real damper on your engine plans if stuck on the ALH as a custom aluminum pan might be spendy. I'm also not sure what other issues would result from the ALH 50° install.

Andrew

Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:42 am

"rsxr", lives in florida, (I think thats how his user name is spelled) has a 50* ALH on the road, I'm not sure of the details though.

Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:31 pm

50 degree ALH. I made a custom pan using the ALH pan's mounting flange from aluminum. I am using and air to air intercooler fitted behind the LR tailight. It is sealed so the air moves through it and out the bottom of the van. Yes, I did cut a hole in the vanagon for the exit. I fabricated custom engine mounts to adapt to the diesel rubber mounts. In hind sight, I think I should have gone with a hydraulic style mount. I am using the stock oil filter housing which does protrude into the engine cover some along with the injection pump. I lost about an inch of space. I made a hat of aluminum to cover the hole I cut in the engine cover, and then made a wood deck from plywood to level the entire area. I have rubber mats from go westy through out the van. I ended up with a nice storage area behind the back seat. If needed, I could come up with a cushion etc, but I like the crow's nest for sleeping. One day I will shoot some pictures. I am not proud of all my work yet. Somethings are still the original rigs.

Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:35 am

Well that kills the ALH idea for me! Sorry....

The next engine on the list would be an AAZ, I guess then, right?

I kinda don't like the idea of any less go than my stock 1.9 wbx has, though. It is slow enough to be dangerous on the freeways here in So Cali. I know there is reading I can do about the AAZ (or whatever engine fits better) to find out how much go and mpg it would bring.

So tell me now, oh so wise ones, is it worth it?

Worth it to transplant all the diesel parts (with an AAZ) and the 5 speed into my running just like it should 85 Westy 1.9 wbx with automatic and air conditioning

OR

Just drop the Suby EJ22 in?

Mind you you I MUST have the AC and it can not have less performance than the way it is now. We only use this van from time to time only on the weekends. I have two A4 ALH powered cars we drive daily. I have a 1959 Mercedes 190SL that also needs love from time to time. So I have plenty of cars and do not need this Westy to optimal, just meet our needs

Mind you, my goal is reliable (my 1.9 wbx is an unknown, but seems to be OK now for the last few years) and I want either good (well better) mileage or performance or both. This 1.9 automatic is a slug and I do not want to flog it any much more for fear something else (which I can not easly get)is going to break.

FYI: Those who know me realize I have been debating this for more than a year or more....Sorry, it is REALLY tough for me.

Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:49 am

The 1Z and AHU will still bolt to the stock diesel oil pan and allow fairly easy install.

A/C will require fabricating a custom A/C bracket. Is that something you can accomplish? I will be doing that to 2 of my vans before long.

My 1.6TD easily outperforms my 1.9 WBX. 24-27 MPG.

Is it worth it? That's really a question that only you can answer with regard to what goals you personally have. If I had a nicely running 1.9WBX with an autobox I wouldn't hesitate to yank both and install a diesel with 5-speed. Then again I don't like gas engines and don't like auto trannies. :D

Andrew

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:19 pm

Andrew A. Libby wrote: The 1Z and AHU will still bolt to the stock diesel oil pan and allow fairly easy install.

A/C will require fabricating a custom A/C bracket. Is that something you can accomplish? I will be doing that to 2 of my vans before long.

My 1.6TD easily outperforms my 1.9 WBX. 24-27 MPG.

Is it worth it? That's really a question that only you can answer with regard to what goals you personally have. If I had a nicely running 1.9WBX with an autobox I wouldn't hesitate to yank both and install a diesel with 5-speed. Then again I don't like gas engines and don't like auto trannies. :D

Andrew
Thanks Andrew.

Quote: A/C will require fabricating a custom A/C bracket.
Why can't I use the A/C bracket and pullys from an A2 diesel with a rotary pump, for example?

Quote: My 1.6TD easily outperforms my 1.9 WBX. 24-27 MPG.
I think your 1.6TD is "tweaked," isn't it? Do you also have more "go" in addition to the increased mpg? Why the 1.6 and not a 1.9?

I think I need to read and find out what the story on the 1.9TD 1Z and AHU are. Nothing is free, so I have to check out what my price I have to pay for this is (not $$$!)

Quote: Is it worth it?
My goals are and pretty much in this order:
reliable
good mpg
more usable power then the wheezer 82 hp wbx gives now
ease of getting parts
ease of service
least impact in "hard" mods to the van

Am I asking too much or not making sense?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:35 pm

r39o wrote: Why the 1.6 and not a 1.9?

Due to their rarity they are overpriced, for what you get, IMO. If you lived in Canada that would be different, but you can get a TDI for the same price here in the states which get %10 more MPGs, and have more power.

Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:36 pm

Jackbombay said my opinion exactly. Also, it doesn't take much to make the 1.6TD go fairly well and is more revable and so somewhat more suited to stock gearing. If I were going to spend the cash required for an AAZ I'd get a 1Z or AHU instead. Granted, I have the capacity to build an MTDI pump and so the install is the same. Also, the 1Z/TDI don't have the added crank snout problem which offsets the build of an mTDI pump. IMO, the only down side to the TDI over the AAZ is that the gearing of the tranny is less favorable for the TDI.

With regard to the A/C bracket, the AAZ/TDI serpentine might not require a big hump in the decklid (I haven't measure that yet), but any earlier setup will. I'm pretty sure even the AAZ/TDI setup will cause the alt to protrude significantly above the decklid. The only solution I've seen with the 50° install is a custom A/C bracket. With the 15° there are plenty of solutions, but the decklid needs to be raised anyway and custom mounts need fabrication along with the adapter kit.

My 1.6TD outperformed my 1.9 WBX with an intercooler and mildly increased boost/fuel. I would add an intercooler to any TD I installed in a vanagon.

I think you'd find that a Subaru swap would be more in depth. Granted I haven't done one, but I think the wiring alone would be almost as much work as a mechanically injected diesel. There are certainly nuances to install an inline-4, but it is semi-drop-in.

Ease of service? Do you mean ease of having someone else service it? If so, then keep the vaseline in the glove box after any engine conversion. :lol: If you mean for working on it yourself, I find the inline-4 diesels to be quite friendly, then again, my father owned them when I was in high school and so I've driven and worked on them for 20 years [holy crap time flies...]

Parts will be hardest to find with the AAZ as it was not stock in any vehicles in the U.S. The 1.6TD or TDI are quite readily available.

Andrew

Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:26 pm

Andrew A. Libby wrote:

Ease of service? Do you mean ease of having someone else service it? If so, then keep the vaseline in the glove box after any engine conversion. :lol: If you mean for working on it yourself, I find the inline-4 diesels to be quite friendly, then again, my father owned them when I was in high school and so I've driven and worked on them for 20 years [holy crap time flies...]

Yea, the 1.6's are quite easy to work on, a dial gauge, a cam locking plate and a pump locking pin are the only special tools you'll ever really need. A TDI is a little more involved to work on because you need a laptop, but I keep an ancient old laptop in the van at all times with vag com so thats not a big deal.

Which conversion is "right"?

It all depends on what you are comfortable with, if you have little to no experience with electronics a 1.6 would likely be the better way to go, or a mechanically injected TDI, although that will cost you more than a 1.6 or an electronic TDI install, but the electronic install will take more of your time.

Assuming you have a known good engine,

Cheapest, 1.6 TD

Quickest conversion, 1.6 TD or M-TDI

Most expensive M-TDI, assuming you can't build the pump yourself.

Most time consuming, E-TDI

Middle of the road cost wise, E-TDI.

Which will be the easiest to get someone else to work on? Eeeekkk!!

Travel with enough tools to work on it yourself, IMO, thats what I do...

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:05 pm

I have officially given up this diesel idea. At least with a VW. Between swapping all the parts, gear ratios, A/C stuff, turbo intercooler plumbing, changing a automatic to stick shit and so on and on and on......I just can not justify it for a van we really only use on a few weekends every now and then. I will keep driving my 2 TDIs and live with the power and poor economy the gas engine gives.

I have somebody else already who wants the diesel van. So everybody is happy!

Thanks for the replies.