TheSamba.com :: View topic - Started my gas saving technics project

Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:16 pm

I started making myself 6 HHO cells to route into my mass air flo in due time when everything is ready.

10C sent me a link to a controller I can make to trick the computer and control my fuel/air mix, but the dirctions are confusing.

I am thinking of routing some air around my air flow meter, then back in after it..... would this trick help in tricking my computer to run less fuel, since it would detect less over all air thru the air flow meter??

I also read of a trick where you can wrap the outside of your O2 sensor in tin foil to heat it up and this will also trick the computer into making my 89 wolfy run leaner.

These pre OBD II vehicles are tricky to control without a MAP sensor, which you can use on vehicles 1996 and up, but the vanagon is a tough cookie. Havent figured it out yet, how to control air/fuel mix manually.

I am also going to add a gas heater, to heat up the gas before it gets in, by routing my gas in line to the antifreeze hose thru a brass U type set up and wrapping that with tinfoil. The theory goes, if you can heat up your gas before it gets burned, it will burn better, especially in winter, and thus up your MPG a bit.

I also want to try a PCV filter, but the filter brings the air return from the collector down to a 3/8ths diameter, when it is like a 3/4" diameter right now. Wonder what that would do, since not as much air will be coming thru as before, but it would be cleaner air......hmmmm

finally, the 4th thing I'm gonna do is order some Kiker spark plug wires. They have a built in coil thing that gives a much better spark.

I think with all 4 of these tricks, HHO, the gas heater, the PCV filter and the Kiker wires, maybe I can get a 30 MPG vanagon going.....

I'm also going to experiment with mixing Acetone and Xylene into the fuel mix...they say use 2 oz of acetone and 3-4 oz of xylene per 10 gallons of gas and this will increase your MPG....

anyone every actually try these tricks.....

Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:16 pm

Quote: I am thinking of routing some air around my air flow meter, then back in after it..... would this trick help in tricking my computer to run less fuel, since it would detect less over all air thru the air flow meter??

I also read of a trick where you can wrap the outside of your O2 sensor in tin foil to heat it up and this will also trick the computer into making my 89 wolfy run leaner.

On the first idea, you're under a common misperception about the AFM. See what I wrote in this thread about what it does:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=308087

On the second, I believe that is bunk.

Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:07 pm

If you are truly going to do this experiment, you must stick to one strategy to obtain any peer approval, dumping a whole bunch of strategies into the mix will only confuse the FACTS.

Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:36 pm

If you bypass the AFM then you will get a very lean idle, but at speed you will get close to the normal amount of fuel. The idle mixture adjustment screw already does this, but to a much more minor extent. Just try and visualize how your engine would operate with the idle mixture that badly out of wack.

Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:14 pm

You can buy fuel/coolant heat exchangers, one supplier is arctic fox, they are comonly used by diesel trucks in extreme cold.
BTW I installed one on my Detroit in the bus & got an imediate 1/2 mpg increase.
from 7 to 7.5mpg which is significant.

Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:03 pm

There's a lot of negatives to having hot fuel, on carburated engines you get vapor lock and on FI engines you can get fuel pump cavitation. You shouldn't have much of a problem on a later Vanagon unless you drive a long enough distance to heat all the fuel in your tank. If you had a 1.9 you will definitely add to the chance of having getting cavitation and damaging your pump.

They have been selling fuel heaters for almost as long as they have been selling cars, you could get them for Model T's. If they made any difference, as cheap as they are all OEM manufacturers would surely use them.

Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:16 am

I just *know* y'all gonna think I'm stupid for saying this, and believe me, if I could find a "stupid smiley icon" I'd use it myself right now.

But isn't one of the reasons our beloved rides get such bad fuel mileage is that we're basically trying to punch a hole in the atmosphere with a big ol' boxy thing?

I'm thinking aerodynamics might give better return on fuel mileage than by messing around with engine fuel management or additives and injectors. For example, enclose the undercarriage of the van (except as necessary for cooling) and consider a larger air dam at the front. And while it may sound silly, how about an aero nose on the van, to boot?

As far as adding acetone and xylene to a heated fuel mix, while I applaud your experimental bravado, I can only say, "better you than me" - I believe you are playing with fire.

A few hours' research on the Web yielded answers like, "Well, it might help" to "It's a surefire way to eventually ruin your engine and make your mechanic rich for life". Almost all the proponents of adding this stuff to gasoline had little data to back up their claims.

Remember, back in WW2 the hot engine additive was Chlorine, which truly did cut friction incredibly - right up until the time the Chlorine reacted with the water formed by the combustion process to form Hydrochloric acid and basically, froze up the engine by rusting it in place when it was shut off. I get the same feeling from reading about acetone, etc.

First off, the ethanol already present in gasoline will largely cancel out any effect the acetone/xylene may have, and secondly, even acetone, xylene or acetone/xylene mixes in ratios as low as 1:320 (and the amounts you listed are in higher concentration than that) can *seriously* damage non-metal fuel system components in a surprisingly short time.

So when I say I believe you're playing with fire, it's not from the fire risk from the additives themselves, but from the very real possibility that your fuel system will be compromised to the point of allowing fuel leaks, breaking down fuel lines, plugging injectors, etc.

If you just *have* to use these additives, how about adding them to your water injection mix? That way you could control the amount added and the acetone/xylene mix would be stabilized through being mixed into water. Mind you, I don't recommend using the volatiles, but if you just have to, at least this would keep them out of your fuel lines, pump, injectors, etc.

Again, I applaud your efforts to use less gasoline and will enjoy hearing of your success using some of your methods.

But if you're gonna use volatile aromatic solvents as fuel additives in a system not specifically designed to handle them, I would advise you to keep a far larger than usual ABC fire extinguisher close at hand. And maybe the number of a good towing company in your wallet.

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:28 pm

I personally know of two well-maintained vehicles that developed leaky injector seals within a few months of using acetone. Unless you've got a few bucks to throw at rubber fuel sustem parts, I'd be careful about that.

It also makes sense to me, if you want to check on the viabilty of HHO, to do all the other engine changes you want, get a baseline MPG, then add your HHO system, and go from there. That would at least be checking on the HHO somewhat independently, and others would know whether your project would be worth replicating. I for one, am interested to see how it pans out. Good luck!

Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:32 am

I was talking to an old car buff the other day and asked him if he had ever heard of anyone using water injection. He said that he had known one person way back in the sixties or seventies that had bought a kit from Western Auto and tried it. Didn't remember the results.

Build yourself a high compression engine in the range or 11 or 12:1 and add water injection. This technology at least has a track record and doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics. I am sure there are down sides to it besides letting your water run low and having an engine that can't be driven because of knock, but I don't know what they are.

Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:58 am

Wildthings wrote: I was talking to an old car buff the other day and asked him if he had ever heard of anyone using water injection. He said that he had known one person way back in the sixties or seventies that had bought a kit from Western Auto and tried it. Didn't remember the results.

Build yourself a high compression engine in the range or 11 or 12:1 and add water injection. This technology at least has a track record and doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics. I am sure there are down sides to it besides letting your water run low and having an engine that can't be driven because of knock, but I don't know what they are.

The car you drive everyday violates the laws of thermodynamics.

Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:04 pm

Spezialist wrote: Wildthings wrote: I was talking to an old car buff the other day and asked him if he had ever heard of anyone using water injection. He said that he had known one person way back in the sixties or seventies that had bought a kit from Western Auto and tried it. Didn't remember the results.

Build yourself a high compression engine in the range or 11 or 12:1 and add water injection. This technology at least has a track record and doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics. I am sure there are down sides to it besides letting your water run low and having an engine that can't be driven because of knock, but I don't know what they are.

The car you drive everyday violates the laws of thermodynamics.

If it does please explain where.

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:12 pm

Actually, I have mentioned a aerodynamic improvement to the Vanagon, the Aerospike. First employed on the Trident D5 Missile:

The Trident II D-5 is a three-stage, solid propellant, inertially guided FBM with a range of more than 4,000 nautical miles (4,600 statute miles or 7,360 km) Trident II is more sophisticated with a significantly greater payload capability. All three stages of the Trident II are made of lighter, stronger, stiffer graphite epoxy, whose integrated structure mean considerable weight savings. The missile's range is increased by the aerospike, a telescoping outward extension that reduces frontal drag by about 50 percent. Trident II is fired by the pressure of expanding gas in the launch tube. When the missile attains sufficient distance from the submarine, the first stage motor ignites, the aerospike extends and the boost stage begins. Within about two minutes, after the third stage motor kicks in, the missile is traveling in excess of 20,000 feet (6,096 meters) per second.

Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:46 pm

thanx everyone for all your imput...... the more experiences we can add to this the better.

today I started running the hydrogen cells, but it hasn't done much good because my air/fuel system first needs to be fixed. I am in a high altitude and I was already not getting enough air becasue my O2 sensor is out.....

(was wondering if anyone in the denver area knew of a good vanagon mechanic to fix it),

so I am not gonna be able to test this properly till I get my air/fuel mix system fixed.

Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:57 pm

Quote: (was wondering if anyone in the denver area knew of a good vanagon mechanic to fix it),

so I am not gonna be able to test this properly till I get my air/fuel mix system fixed.

Uh...
You might need to be able to change something as simple as an O2 sensor for most of us to believe anything else you tell us.

Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:34 pm

once I get my air/fule mix system fixed, I'm gonna try an o2 sensor extender, which brings the o2 sensor out some, reading less 02, whcih may help me lean the mix some for the hydrogen to make up for the leaner gas, whcih will in turn save me on fuel...that's the whole purpose of HHO. I'll try that first, then try to move into an electronic manual adjuster if I can find the correct one for a vanagon.....

the idea is HHO hits your cylinder, instead of just o2 and gas, so with an electronic manual adjuster, you can lean your fuel mix and listen to your engine knock a little, then turn on your HHO cells and listen for the engine to smooth out..... then you fine tune it for highway and local driving ....this is done with an efie or map sensor, accept map sensors are used for OBD2, but vanagons are OBD1, so still trying to figure out what to use for that.....I heard that if you find the wire to your 02 sensor that when you rev the engine, the voltage changed dramatically , then that's the wire to tap into for an EFEI O2 manual adjuster......that can control the mixture they say.....if anyone knows anything more on this....what ablessing to the board becasue if we can figure this out and get a vanagon running at 28-30 mpg..... wow! that would be awsome for all of us!

Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:29 pm

Wildthings wrote: Spezialist wrote: Wildthings wrote: I was talking to an old car buff the other day and asked him if he had ever heard of anyone using water injection. He said that he had known one person way back in the sixties or seventies that had bought a kit from Western Auto and tried it. Didn't remember the results.

Build yourself a high compression engine in the range or 11 or 12:1 and add water injection. This technology at least has a track record and doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics. I am sure there are down sides to it besides letting your water run low and having an engine that can't be driven because of knock, but I don't know what they are.

The car you drive everyday violates the laws of thermodynamics.

If it does please explain where.

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:wNqAjaHhcpkJ:...&gl=us

Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:05 pm

After thoroughly and completely examining the current laws of thermodynamics, I've determined that the only logical conclusion is that nothing exists, never has and never will.

Andrew

Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:47 pm

weatherbill wrote: once I get my air/fule mix system fixed, I'm gonna try an o2 sensor extender, which brings the o2 sensor out some, reading less 02, whcih may help me lean the mix some for the hydrogen to make up for the leaner gas, whcih will in turn save me on fuel...that's the whole purpose of HHO. I'll try that first, then try to move into an electronic manual adjuster if I can find the correct one for a vanagon.....

the idea is HHO hits your cylinder, instead of just o2 and gas, so with an electronic manual adjuster, you can lean your fuel mix and listen to your engine knock a little, then turn on your HHO cells and listen for the engine to smooth out..... then you fine tune it for highway and local driving ....this is done with an efie or map sensor, accept map sensors are used for OBD2, but vanagons are OBD1, so still trying to figure out what to use for that.....I heard that if you find the wire to your 02 sensor that when you rev the engine, the voltage changed dramatically , then that's the wire to tap into for an EFEI O2 manual adjuster......that can control the mixture they say.....if anyone knows anything more on this....what ablessing to the board becasue if we can figure this out and get a vanagon running at 28-30 mpg..... wow! that would be awsome for all of us!

Man, you have been spending too much time over at waterfuelcell.org or a similar web site.

That's not to say I don't repect your experimenting, etc., but you need to get a good manual, Bently preferred, and learn about your engine before you start doing things.................the O2 sensor wire is "extremely" easy to find!

Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:57 pm

Spezialist wrote: Wildthings wrote: Spezialist wrote: Wildthings wrote: I was talking to an old car buff the other day and asked him if he had ever heard of anyone using water injection. He said that he had known one person way back in the sixties or seventies that had bought a kit from Western Auto and tried it. Didn't remember the results.

Build yourself a high compression engine in the range or 11 or 12:1 and add water injection. This technology at least has a track record and doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics. I am sure there are down sides to it besides letting your water run low and then having an engine that can't be driven because of knock, but I don't know what they are.

The car you drive everyday violates the laws of thermodynamics.

If it does please explain where.

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:wNqAjaHhcpkJ:...&gl=us

I am not about to read a complete thread written by a bunch of yahoos that may or may not include any believable information, please at least quote one source that shows that my or any other spark ignition internal combustion engine powered car violates any of the laws of thermodynamics.

Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:14 am

Wildthings wrote: Spezialist wrote: Wildthings wrote: Spezialist wrote: Wildthings wrote: I was talking to an old car buff the other day and asked him if he had ever heard of anyone using water injection. He said that he had known one person way back in the sixties or seventies that had bought a kit from Western Auto and tried it. Didn't remember the results.

Build yourself a high compression engine in the range or 11 or 12:1 and add water injection. This technology at least has a track record and doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics. I am sure there are down sides to it besides letting your water run low and then having an engine that can't be driven because of knock, but I don't know what they are.

The car you drive everyday violates the laws of thermodynamics.

If it does please explain where.

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:wNqAjaHhcpkJ:...&gl=us

I am not about to read a complete thread written by a bunch of yahoos that may or may not include any believable information, please at least quote one source that shows that my or any other spark ignition internal combustion engine powered car violates any of the laws of thermodynamics.

Your car alternator creates energy, that is in clear violation of thermodynamics.