TheSamba.com :: View topic - Started my gas saving technics project

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:30 am

or, since you've already got the O2 extender installed to lean out the mix, maybe you just need to control both parts of the AFM... by the look of the cost - if you're buying 3 or 4 different controllers - you might as well spend the extra $100 for that programmable ECU (then you'll even get control of your timing, and you can program pre-sets).

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:33 am

good point, but wondering what the learning curve is on the programable ecu.....I guess if I want this badly enough, I would go ahead and get it

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:46 am

tencentlife wrote: I was told by a guy who has messed with hydrogen stuff for many years that the reaction peaks at about 3V. Raising V above that just makes excess heat and boils off the electrolyte.

Not true. It takes a set amount of energy (voltage times current times time) to electrolyze a given amount of hydrogen and oxygen. The current depends directly on the voltage and the conductivity of the water. The conductivity drops if the newly-produced gas remains in the region of the current. Keep the water moving in the region between the plates and the conductivity will stay high so you can use higher voltages to yield higher currents and greater gas production.

Note that your energy efficiency stays pretty much the same regardless of the rate of gas production. It takes the same energy to electrolyze a mole of hydrogen/oxygen regardless of how fast you do it.

Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:32 pm

Just wondering if any new developments have taken place since last Friday.

Thanks,
Andy

Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:45 pm

AndyBees wrote: Just wondering if any new developments have taken place since last Friday.

Thanks,
Andy
I think he figured out he spent alot of time and energy making someone else a little richer.... :D
HHO is a great chem lab experiment but don't expect any miraculous gains in your engine!!

Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:13 pm

yes! I've been getting 3 MPG improvement on kiker spark plug wires.

I am going back in to make a better hydrogen system....the small wire electrodes I don';t think were producing enough HHO to make a difference....

We also have to remember that vanagons are a beast of a different feast.... testing to get around the sensors will take some time to figure out and may need a megasquirt system......

I used to get 18 mpg....now I'm getting 21-22 mpg. I tihnk with HHO I might be able to get to 30 MPG....that is my goal anyways, a 30 mpg vanagon. I think it can be done and time will tell........hey, if I'm wrong, oh well...... some money spent,which I have and sinc eI;v ealready got some 3+ mpg savings now, could be just the beginning to some great finds in HHO for the vanagon....... can;t know until we try.....one thing for sure, it is gullibel to think the auto industry is not controlled by the oil industry and it is gullible to think they have not been suppressing new inventions from us.

Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:43 pm

Quote: that is my goal anyways, a 30 mpg vanagon

If this is your goal put a diesel in it, very well documented and proven. The HHO and wires are going to have to do better than that. I think what you're doing is what more people need to do in terms of energy independence but it's got to have better results than what is already available. If this is a personal experiment then no issues but if you're thinking your research might uncover something new you should have a "business plan" attitude with it. What would make me want to go with HHO and the 2.1 vs a TD or TDI burning BD? Not trying to be negative just wondering where you're going with this. Do you envision a Yahoo group dedicated to HHO conversion vanagons or possibly developing a commercial product?

Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:25 pm

weatherbill wrote: yes! I've been getting 3 MPG improvement on kiker spark plug wires.

I am curious. How did you measure that?

Neal

Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:27 pm

fairweather wrote: Quote: that is my goal anyways, a 30 mpg vanagon

If this is your goal put a diesel in it, very well documented and proven. The HHO and wires are going to have to do better than that. I think what you're doing is what more people need to do in terms of energy independence but it's got to have better results than what is already available. If this is a personal experiment then no issues but if you're thinking your research might uncover something new you should have a "business plan" attitude with it. What would make me want to go with HHO and the 2.1 vs a TD or TDI burning BD? Not trying to be negative just wondering where you're going with this. Do you envision a Yahoo group dedicated to HHO conversion vanagons or possibly developing a commercial product?

no, this is for personal gain in MPG......but I do want to master how HHO works for a vanagon and what is needed to trick the cpu to run HHO and less gas......

Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:50 pm

weatherbill wrote: no, this is for personal gain in MPG......but I do want to master how HHO works for a vanagon and what is needed to trick the cpu to run HHO and less gas......

Iam just thinking out loud here, but what if you just bagged the fuel injection system and threw on a pair of carbs? (I never in a million years thought i would say that) It would be much easier to lean and richen the mixture accordingly. No messing with the ecu or trying to install an after market ecu. Besides, wont it be hard to get the thing to run correctly without a dyno and a sniffer if you do decide to go the MS route? If the HHO ends up doing something for the carbs then you can slap on the FI system again and go from there.

Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:18 pm

Have you tried to measure the actual amount of HHO you are generating? Fill a liter bottle with water and invert it into a deep tub of water so that the water doesn't flow out. Then stick the hose from your HHO generator into the upturned bottle and see how much HHO you get in one minute.

At an idle speed of 800 rpm's the displaced volume for a 2.1 liter engine will be 840 Liters at about 1/6 atmosphere or 140 liters (~36 gallons) at 1 atmosphere of pressure. How do the two compare? Do you think that you can generate enough gas in a minute to have much affect 36 gallons of Air/Fuel mix, if you can't then the HHO can not have much if any affect. How think about driving down the road at 3000 RPM at about 1/2 power, you are now sucking in about 400 gallons of air a minute at one atmospher, but are not producing a bit more HHO. 400 gallons of Air/Fuel mix is going to totally dwarf your tiny bit of HHO.

You have already tried fooling your CPU by setting your AFM lean and you found that the engine didn't run all that well. If you come up with a more expensive way to make your engine run lean you will discover that it doesn't run well that way either.

The idea of using H2 to ignite your A/F mix is great, but you will have to have enough H2 to account for about 4% of 400 gallons or 16 gallons of H2 at one standard atmosphere each minute. Remember this is H2 not HHO so you would need a third more HHO or around 24 gallons a minute.

Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:06 pm

FYI - I tested out a unit today that had a -,n,n,+,-,n,n,- in an over-sized cell and though it didn't produce very well (a little less with water than a standard wiring with water/vinegar) the normal functioning of the ignition path seem undisturbed (the generator was wired in series between the ignition coil and the distributor cap).

I plan to keep some gas-mileage records on an upcoming trip as a base-reference for when the system's finally installed. Can't wait to test the ignition-series-wiring-configuration using a generator with a -,+,-,+,-,+,-,... configuration and plain old water, I'm still thinking it would be the best for my intentions.

Cheers

Garth

Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:00 am

I am addressing that very isue, thats why I am building some HHO cells that are gonna put out some serious amount of HHO...... I am planning for 6 super HHO cells, 2 each wired in series each at about 25 amps..... if I need to, I will even go to get some deep cell batteries, which I've been wanting to get anyways and wire them in series to get 24 volts to keep the amperage down, then add more HHO cells....if I do this set up, I could get to 3 liters per minute on the 24 volts, but then I may need to upgrade my alternator.....however, my alternatire is about 80 amos capacity. I would only need 40-50 amps to get 3 liters per minute.......

amps are determined by the amount of electrolite in the water such as baking soda and how far apart you're keeping your electrodes...... wiring cells in series helps keep the water cool and the HHO production up, and keeping the amperage down per cell.....you only need about 3-4 volts per plate or electrode.

I am making wire electrodes, but they are not small like the .045" water4gas teaches.
I am using 3/32" and 1/8 " thick waire electrodes. I am doing it like the swiss guy on youtube is doing his......type in "HHO Swiss" for his video on wire electrodes.....the swiss guy has some exelent teaching videos on making these adn other types of HHO cells.

Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:20 pm

weatherbill wrote: I am addressing that very isue, thats why I am building some HHO cells that are gonna put out some serious amount of HHO...... I am planning for 6 super HHO cells, 2 each wired in series each at about 25 amps..... if I need to, I will even go to get some deep cell batteries, which I've been wanting to get anyways and wire them in series to get 24 volts to keep the amperage down, then add more HHO cells....if I do this set up, I could get to 3 liters per minute on the 24 volts, but then I may need to upgrade my alternator.....however, my alternatire is about 80 amos capacity. I would only need 40-50 amps to get 3 liters per minute.......

amps are determined by the amount of electrolite in the water such as baking soda and how far apart you're keeping your electrodes...... wiring cells in series helps keep the water cool and the HHO production up, and keeping the amperage down per cell.....you only need about 3-4 volts per plate or electrode.

I am making wire electrodes, but they are not small like the .045" water4gas teaches.
I am using 3/32" and 1/8 " thick waire electrodes. I am doing it like the swiss guy on youtube is doing his......type in "HHO Swiss" for his video on wire electrodes.....the swiss guy has some exelent teaching videos on making these adn other types of HHO cells.

I admire your enthusiasm, however by your posts on here I see you are somewhat lacking in basic physics and probably most dangerous of all basic electricity. Before you burn down your van, blow yourself up or your passengers do a little google search. You will be amazed what you can learn in a few minutes.
I recommend you go and look up the following:
basic wiring and resistance of wire gauges
Ohms law
Difference wiring in parallel and in series (ohms or load)
Voltage/Amps/Ohms and their interactions
It is fun to experiment, but doing it in a safe, controlled and informed manner is best. Experimentation is done best when you have a firm grasp of the basic laws/theories, have a repeatable controlled SAFE environment and hypothesized result.
I mean no disrespect, but it doesn't seem you have any of the above in check and your your just an accident waiting to happen.
Just be careful. :D :D

Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:15 pm

I admire your enthusiasm, however by your posts on here I see you are somewhat lacking in basic physics and probably most dangerous of all basic electricity. Before you burn down your van, blow yourself up or your passengers do a little google search. You will be amazed what you can learn in a few minutes.
I recommend you go and look up the following:
basic wiring and resistance of wire gauges
Ohms law
Difference wiring in parallel and in series (ohms or load)
Voltage/Amps/Ohms and their interactions
It is fun to experiment, but doing it in a safe, controlled and informed manner is best. Experimentation is done best when you have a firm grasp of the basic laws/theories, have a repeatable controlled SAFE environment and hypothesized result.
I mean no disrespect, but it doesn't seem you have any of the above in check and your your just an accident waiting to happen.
Just be careful. Quote: Quote:

excuse me, but I am an electrical contractor. been doing it for 17 years..... have had stringent state exams on ohms law for licencing and contracting.
I do believe I know what I'm doing, but thanx for the concern :D

Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:21 pm

I'm more concerned about the proper handling of the explosive gases than the electrical end. Putting the generators in an enclosed compartment inside the vehicle is pretty scary! One little leak and a tiny ignition source will ruin the whole day.

There is a very good reason why propane bottles are put outside the vehicle, and the gas they produce isn't pre-mixed with oxygen!

Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:17 pm

GeorgeL wrote: I'm more concerned about the proper handling of the explosive gases than the electrical end. Putting the generators in an enclosed compartment inside the vehicle is pretty scary! One little leak and a tiny ignition source will ruin the whole day.

There is a very good reason why propane bottles are put outside the vehicle, and the gas they produce isn't pre-mixed with oxygen!

it is not a worry for me, as there is a bubbler to give me warning that there is a leak if one does occur....I'm also not worried becasue HHO is not stored, but used immediatly.....the little that is left over when the engine is turned off is so small that any leak would be disipated pretty quickly........no one smokes in my van as well, so no worries there...... as with many things about a vehicle, there are plenty of dangers.....a developed "horse sense" and mechanical ability should overcome any would be dangers.....

remember, propane is stored, but HHO is not....big differnence

Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:16 am

I cant tell from the last 6 pages if HHO is working for you.

Can you dumb it down for me, what is the gas mileage gains from HHO so far?

I appreciate you taking your time to research and share your results.

Since HHO seems like snake oil to many, can you suggest any concrete evidence, links to actual test results..

most of what Im finding is all about how great the idea sounds, but sorely lacking in any data from a functioning unit..

thanks for any facts
Jonathan Just the Beef

Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:59 pm

Jon_slider wrote: I cant tell from the last 6 pages if HHO is working for you.

Can you dumb it down for me, what is the gas mileage gains from HHO so far?

I appreciate you taking your time to research and share your results.

Since HHO seems like snake oil to many, can you suggest any concrete evidence, links to actual test results..

most of what Im finding is all about how great the idea sounds, but sorely lacking in any data from a functioning unit..

thanks for any facts
Jonathan Just the Beef

I have no proof to show, but if you'll do a youtube search under HHO, alot of people swear by it. it makes sense to me becasue hydrogen, if you can get it into your air intake, and thus, into your cylindar air chamber, shoulds produce some pop with the fuel, giving more power and better mpg, since then , you could lean back in your fuel mix.....

I contemplating whether to get an EFIE controller or a megasquirt, total control over the computer's fuel/air mix

Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:13 pm

My brother installed a MegaSquirt on his Scirocco and told me it does give you a lot of control over everything through the laptop. Since you are into it this far....it might be a good way to go. I am just considering it since my fuel injection is just getting so old it is getting harder to find parts.

Good luck on this project....I think even the past naysayers are still watching since no one really knows if it helps or not.