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weatherbill Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:54 pm

still alive....LOL

just trying to figure out how to manipulate the computer still.... :?

Ken Letherer Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:17 am

Thermo King sells this interesting unit for the big rigs.

http://www.cstk.com/shop/productdetail.htm?productId=-3008&shopBy=-243&catalogId=-104

weatherbill Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:25 am

some work I've been doing

moved the cells to under the seat area


evolving in my biz venture with these....making prototypes and learning as I go along....... the glass jar on the left was the first....began t see how lame that set up was and started making plate electrodes and more sturdier containers...... now realizing the benefits of a bubbler container over the check valves used for safety.....charge HHO water in the bubbler is an added benefit to MPG because the charged wate rhas certain electrical properties that I can;t explain in scientific terms, but been reading some great things about charged HHO watrer for health and MPG benefits.
Also went back to manipulating the pentiometer for the MAF and used 02 extenders to attempt to trick the cpu......I upgraded my HHO set up with 3/8" hose instead of the 3/16" hose with it;s very small coupling connectors....I can;t see how anyone can get the full beneift from such small openings in these untis, as well as a risk of soemthing clogging such a small intake hole.
So we will see what my adjustments and tweekings brings.


here are some HHO generators I've been working on..... the one on the far right is one with 5 plate electrodes.....very powerful! But will try in series with another so to keep amperage down....don't want to get too many amps going in these because of heat, that's why a series hook up will generate more HHO but using less amps. the one on the far left is one from water4gas.com specs....lamo!

GeorgeL Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:32 am

Ken Letherer wrote: Thermo King sells this interesting unit for the big rigs.

http://www.cstk.com/shop/productdetail.htm?productId=-3008&shopBy=-243&catalogId=-104

I love these ads where they don't even bother to check their math:

Quote: Simply replenish chamber with de-ionized water every 10,000 to 12,000 miles or 80 hours of operation.

That means that the truckers using this system are expected to drive between 125 and 150 MPH! :shock:

GeorgeL Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:36 am

weatherbill wrote: .I upgraded my HHO set up with 3/8" hose instead of the 3/16" hose with it;s very small coupling connectors....I can;t see how anyone can get the full beneift from such small openings in these untis, as well as a risk of soemthing clogging such a small intake hole.

Have you considered that the hose might be sized to minimize explosion hazard? Double the size of the hose and you quadruple the combustible gas volume inside, as well as slowing the flow velocity within the hose to 1/4 of its previous value.

weatherbill Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:02 pm

when you have a bubbler, it doesn't matter...any flash back will be squelched by the water in the bubbler

GeorgeL Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:08 pm

weatherbill wrote: when you have a bubbler, it doesn't matter...any flash back will be squelched by the water in the bubbler

True, but you also have four times the explosive gas in the hoses. I've never seen a hydrogen-oxygen explosion split a hose, but I have seen 1/4" fiber reinforced hoses split open by oxygen/acetylene.

weatherbill Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:09 am

GeorgeL wrote: weatherbill wrote: when you have a bubbler, it doesn't matter...any flash back will be squelched by the water in the bubbler

True, but you also have four times the explosive gas in the hoses. I've never seen a hydrogen-oxygen explosion split a hose, but I have seen 1/4" fiber reinforced hoses split open by oxygen/acetylene.

you're not storing the HHO...you're using it as it's produced......sure there will be some in the hoses, but if you're that afraid of the risk, might as well get rid of the gas tank bomb you're carrying aroudn with you as well.....

as with anything new, people sometimes have fears over the unknown....I'm pressing on......

GeorgeL Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:15 am

weatherbill wrote: GeorgeL wrote: weatherbill wrote: when you have a bubbler, it doesn't matter...any flash back will be squelched by the water in the bubbler

True, but you also have four times the explosive gas in the hoses. I've never seen a hydrogen-oxygen explosion split a hose, but I have seen 1/4" fiber reinforced hoses split open by oxygen/acetylene.

you're not storing the HHO...you're using it as it's produced......sure there will be some in the hoses, but if you're that afraid of the risk, might as well get rid of the gas tank bomb you're carrying aroudn with you as well.....

as with anything new, people sometimes have fears over the unknown....I'm pressing on......

Fear of the unknown is not the issue. Respect for known dangers is. I respect the _known_ fact that pre-mixed oxygen/hydrogen is much more dangerous than either pure hydrogen or pure gasoline. The "gas tank bomb" you refer to doesn't have its own oxidizer built in, so it can't explode like a stoichiometric mixture.

I'm also aware that you're using the mixture as it is produced. However, you do have explosive mixture in the lines. By doubling the size of the lines you quadruple the amount of explosive gas as well as doubling the stress on the material of the line if there is an explosion. A given explosion will therefore put eight times the stress on the line, making it much more likely to fail. And, you're putting all this in a compartment inside the vehicle right under the passenger seat.

There are several YouTube videos of accidental HHO device explosions, which indicates that they are not uncommon and that there are probably more serious explosions that didn't get recorded or publicized.

Experimentation is fine, but doing it properly means taking precautions appropriate for the materials being produced.

canadianmirth Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:11 pm

so, since I responded to the other reply about my soon-to-be HHO project, I thought I'd pipe-up about this one too...

I'm planning on using a bubbler, to mix/enrich the gas and provide some safety, but it will be followed by a solenoid that will only open the out-hose when the engine runs, and will vent to a minimal-pressure-release-one-way-valve (I pulled from a fuel line at the auto-wreckers) and a tube out to the air when it's not. You may have noted that I'm hoping to have a fresh-water system (uses no electrolytes), and I'm planning to keep the bubbler full with a level sensor (from some wrecked-car's coolant tank) that will trigger a pump (was for washer-fluid) and another solenoid (fuel line) acting like a stop-valve to fill the bubbler from the reservoir. Such is the plan, anyway.
I'm planning to input the HHO into the air-intake before the AFM, but it sounds like a second line after the throttle body, complete with a back-up-prevention valve on each, might be a better plan... your thoughts?
I was also thinking of piping in a small line from the HHO output into the crankcase collector - thinking the HHO will clean it out as unstable oxygen and vapor break the surface tension of the carbons/hydrocarbons there-in, and unstable hydrogen can bond with carbons and other elements... how-knows, maybe we'll be able to get production through the bubbler high enough that we have to toss a little crude in there (which will float atop the water) to keep some of the condensation out of the lines, but that's implying streams of HHO, not bubbles. Of course, I may be a fool, just to warn you...
keep us posted on your progress... keep up the constructive feedback... we'll do the same.
cheers

canadianmirth Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:16 pm

and I value all this constructive information.

Crankey Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:39 pm

I just want an automatic reminder on this thread. really interesting and I shure hope it works out great. definatly like hard plastic tube better than glass !

good luck ! :D

weatherbill Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:44 pm

I like a clear, hard plastic bubbler because I like to see the bubbling action and if a leak occures, I'll be able to see the bubbling amount decrease, then I know to look for the problem....a see thru bubbler is kinda like a a meter on how well the system is operating....... :D

canadianmirth Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:53 pm

yup... hence the fact I've been looking at bullet-proof-plexiglass (Lucite) for my application - because it's clear, electrically insulating, and has better thermal stability than other plastics... been thinking heavily about "Hybrid Conversions, aka March-Labs (an ebay seller)" because I haven't figured out where to pick-up the material locally, and it looks like they're doing nice work.
opinions?

weatherbill Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:29 pm

had an idea for leaning the air/gas mix...... what if I took the air intake hose to the MAF out from the side and ran it so hot air from the engine would go thru it, would that not lean the mix, hotter air going thru to fool the compter to run the engine leaner???

canadianmirth Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:53 pm

I don't know if you want to start pumping in hot air... you'll get more O2 into the air with the colder air coming into the intake... do you have an electronic O2 controller? that might help (I'm looking at watergas123.com for a combined unit with indicator lights for the system controls/sensors I'm planning).
if the computer is calculating mass by volume and temperature, maybe we'll need manual control of both in order to make really big changes. now to figure out how to do that...

canadianmirth Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:21 pm

so, it occurs to me that the temp sensor portion of the AFM likely works where the colder the air temp = the less resistance in the sensor... so if this is true, wouldn't putting the MAP/MAF controller on terminal 4 (the common ground) not give us variable-resistance-control of the entire sensor? I was hesitant because I associate temp-sensors with "wolfie's" finicky cooling system, but this one really doesn't apply, so sorry for the prior suggestion of not including it in the resistor path of the MAP/MAF controller.

tencentlife Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:39 am

Temp sensors are NTC (Negative Temp Coefficient) thermistors: their resistance decreases as temp rises, the opposite of a conventional resistor.

You wouldn't want to deliberately introduce heated air into the intake, except temporarily to warm up the engine faster as has been done by many OEM intake arrangements. Cool air is denser, filling the cylinder with more mass, which results in higher heat of compression, faster, more complete fuel burn and thus more power. I think if there is anything to be gained by this HHO stuff, it would be because it increases the burn rate. There's a lot of potential efficiency gain in an ICE to be had by getting the fuel to burn faster, provided you then adjust timing and mixture to take advantage of it. But you won't realise the gains in efficiency you seek if you begin by strangling the engine by feeding it heated air.

You know you can adjust the AFM vane-pot mechanically to do just about anything you want the ECU to do so long as you only run open-loop. Problem is the only way to do it competently is with some way to analyse the results on the tail end. The best thing to have is a wide-band o2 controller/monitor, to represent the exhaust o2 content as a mixture ratio. In order to use it with what you guys are trying, though, you would have to know what effects, if any, added HHO has on the exhaust o2 content relative to base mixture and the amount of added HHO.

I was wondering earlier about putting the cells in series. I don't know much about electrolysis, but I was told by a guy who has messed with hydrogen stuff for many years that the reaction peaks at about 3V. Raising V above that just makes excess heat and boils off the electrolyte. So if that's true, putting 4 cells in series on a 12V system would give the most efficient production of HHO with the available amperage. But you guys are more tapped into what experimenters are doing along these lines, so I could be completely wrong.

Also, epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) makes a good conductive electrolyte, among things you might find around the house. You might experiment with that instead of baking soda. Who knows what the difference might be.

canadianmirth Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:34 am

thanks for the correction...

sounds like manual control of the O2 Sensor and the Air Flow potentiometer (so we're back to wire 2 on the AFM) are going to be the best we can do. Strange that the temp-sensor works that way... seems to go against the physics to me.
As for the O2 and air/gas mix - if the ECU senses extra O2 in the exhaust, it compensates by applying more gas. If the O2 sensor works the same way as the temp-sensor (the higher return voltage (within the range) with higher levels of O2 and temp respectively), maybe a second O2 controller-type-circuit wired to the AFM's temp sensor is the answer we're looking for... short of finally dishing out for that programmable ECU that we can hook up to a laptop to control everything under various setting dynamics.

weatherbill Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:36 am

maybe we need 3 controllers, one for the 02 sensor, one for the AFM potentiometer and one for the AFM temp sensor???



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