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Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:13 pm

hi im from the uk and building a 2332cc motor for my t1
im looking for a weekend warrior which i will take down the strip occasionally! looking for good power band of approx 2 to 6000 rpm,
this my list so far, main reason for post is choice of cam thinking of fk8???
what do you guys think? any help gratefully recieved!!

super race case 8mm stud
scat 84mm crank
94 forged barrels and pistons
cb 044 ultra mag heads (42, 37.5 vavles)
scat pro-comp 1.4 rockers
scat h beam 5.5 rods
forged lightened f/w kennedy st1 and centre force clutch
straight cut cam gears
scat lube a lobe followers
weber 48idf carbs (rebuilt with smaller 38 venturies instead of 40's)
a1 1 5/8 ceramic merged header
a1 2 1/2 kafer cup fat boy muffler
dtm t1 fan conversion

what do you think? weekend warrior?
regards steven

Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:28 pm

FK46 with some 1.4's is nice but you will need to re-set up the heads for all that lift. Set the thing at 10.0:1 and your good!!! :D

Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:26 pm

would that give me good power band starting around 2 2500 rpm?
was thinking around 9;5 compression?

Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:31 am

I would not personally use those scat lifters, search for feedback on them, and I would choose some hand ported heads also.

Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:53 pm

Speedy s

Look up Gericos post 2276 dyno test on the Samba. That is why the Engle 120 cam was my choice for customers street and dune engines. It will pull very hard any rpm. The lift is low no notching of pistons is required, valve guides last a little longer and the lifter bores do not need to be sleeved. The FK 7, 8,10 and 43 and 46 are also all good choices. My 2332 ran 13.1 in a stock weight 1970 VW with complete interior, spare tire, etc with 205/15 street tires, close ratio transaxle from a Baja bug, sway away axles, nerf bars and a dry sump. It might of even weighed more than a stock VW. It used a DDS 11-1101 cam which is supposed to be like an Engle 110. With strip gearing and slicks mid 12s would of been possible. The FKs are more exciting to drive but Gericos dyno test is hard to ignore. For a very quick daily driver it can not be overlooked. Its not what cam to use but what combination of cam, carbs, heads to use. That is what you pay AJ, DRD, Art Thraen, Jeff Sims, Mike Fischer, Fumio, Bergs,etc to do.

Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:25 pm

Thanks for the advise,
what make lifters would you advise?
so 110 and 1.25 rockers would be a better way to go?
i like the sound of the fk8 cam, all my friends over here havent heard of it before though!
im happy with a bit of a rough idle just after good pull 2k upwards!
why are the fk cams more exciting? do the come in to the power band quicker??

Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:08 pm

The FK7 and FK8 and VZ 25 will get in its powerband fast than the 110,120 and 130
The new FKs including the FK 43 are quicker accelerating than the old FKs.
They all should run low 13s to mid 12s in the 1/4 mile.
The VZ and new style FKs are hard on lifter bores and should be sleeved
That said any of them need the heads, exhaust, carbs and gear ratios matched to the cam and application.
Piston to valve clearance needs to be taken into account with the FK8 and FK 43 cams.
FK 7 w/1.4 rockers .500lift and 244 duration
w110 w/1.25 rockers .464 lift and 247 duration
fk 8 w/1.4 rockers .534 lift and 258 duration
VZ 25 w/1.1 rockers .470 lift and 256 duration
w120 w/1.25 rockers .480 lift and 253 duration
fk43 w/1.4 rockers .536 lift and .250 duration
W130 w/ 1.25 rockers .508 lift and 267 duration
With the exception of the w130 cam are similar in specifications.
I use a VZ 25 style cam in my offroad 2180 with a single Zenith 28 mm le 2 barrel. With 33" tires it works well. In a 1500lb rail it has run 15.5 in the 1/4. Pretty good for such a small single carb.
I built a 1776 with an Engle w130 cam, Mike Fischer heads and a single Weber 40mm carb. In a 67 Beetle with the sandrail transaxle and gutted interior and 26x6 slicks it ran 15.4. It also worked well in my Baja with a 5.38 R&P 3 rib T-2 transaxle. These weird compos worked because time was invested getting them to work. Especially dialing the 1776's carb.
Use the FK 8 if you like how it sounds get the heads optimized by some one who has worked with this cam. The wrong heads could cost you 60hp and a lot more torque. Glenn has posted his engine build on The Samba.

Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:45 am

Is there a reason to have such a low revving engine for strip action?

If you look at alot of dyno charts even an web86C will start to peter out at 6400rpms with a set a good heads.

I've used a CB2289 (similar to 86C) with my 2332 and its a nice overal cam that has more topend than an 86B. It will be softer down low and probably not meet your 2000rpm requirement. Now that I have an fk46 I'll have a hard time ever using an 86C or CB2289. The fk40 series is aggressive on the ramps (fast open and closing of the valves). The bottom end grunt is noticeably harder off the line. My car pulls incredibly hard in the low 2000rpm range with my pumpgas engine.

I've run an fk47 with rocker that measure out to 1.56. Even with 48mm ti valves (sucks bigtime on the street due to tuliping of the margin on the valve) NO issues of kissing a piston. The playdoh doesn't lie :)

First off I'm a believer in sleeving lifter bores regardless of what cam/valve springs you use.

I dont see a point in having a low redline of 6000rpms. I understand this is your choice but the cam profile will be your rev limiter NOT the head or engine displacement.

I'd say the safest bet is to use a fk8 with a sleeved mag case. You will NOT have lifter bores wearing prematurely. That fk8 will allow you to increase your shifting point to about 7000 rpms without compromising HP. The engle 120 in real life track use will probably literally fall on its face by 6500rpms. Dyno results are truly meaningless IMO if you fall on your face at 6500 rpms since RPM recovery time (gearing and weight of car will determine this) is NOT factored in when you become a dyno queen looking for HP/torque figures.

Just remember that whenever you start using fk40 series cams its adviseable to monitor/change your valve springs due to the aggressive nature of the fast ramping cam.

I ran 11.95 in the 1/4 with a CB2289 cam with my CR set to 9.4:1 in my fairweather street car. Virtually same combo with fk46 I went 11.92 but shorter gear box.

I'd go 1 3/4 merged if you want to go more aggressive on your engine combo.

If you truly want your car to pull hard a 2000 rpms your head choice is a very poor one. Those pig port 82-83cc intake ports are massive and will require some time to gain port velocity at low rpms. Having hand ported heads with 72-74cc intake ports will speed things up aswell as match your desired operating rpm range.

What is your realistic goal in 1/4 mile times?? Realistic forecast on the longevity of the engine?

Do yourself a big favour and buy some proven inexpensive CB 28mm lightweight lifters or spend some coin and buy yourself Udo becker tool steel lifters.

I dare anyone to breakin a virgin engine by idling it. Udo's lifters are one of the most superior lifters available on the market right now. Priced right and can be reuseable with cam swaps. I idled my virgin 2332 with chevy valve springs/fk47/udo lifters. The only concern I have is to breaking the piston rings.

Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:46 am

Thanks for all youre great help, the trouble is in the uk theres not many specialist parts suppliers and i think alot of them work on theory not real time!
if you guys can help create a great package with me it would be most appreciated! as previous post if i can get good power from 2 to 7 k thats great!
i think im going with the fk8 cam

1. can i buy a super race case already fitter with bronze sleeves? if not what is the process? drill and sleeveing!

2,the cb lifters sound good, will they be ample and 28 or 30mm or slash out on udo beckers

3,are the 044 ultra mag heads a good place to start? the exhaust is already ported to 1.5 inch i assumed the more porting from factory the less i need to do? my choise was 42 x 37 valves, these heads have chamber porting already too!

5.4 or 5.5 scat or cb h beam rods chevy or vw journal? will 5.5 longblock in std body 73 beetle be pushing it?

cb rockers 1.4 cant find any info in uk mags is there choices?

sorry for all the questions, but youre advice is invaluable!
regards steven

Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:05 am

i would love to get near the 13 barrier and make it useable for weekends and reliable enough for me to not have to keeping engine out every year!
is this optomistic??

Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:07 am

o would love to get near the 13 barrier keep it nice and drivable on the street and reliable enough to not have to take engine out every year!
is this asking too much??
probally only do couple hand full of runs a few times a year!!

Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:51 am

If your thinking 13's I'd say go mild then. No need to make things aggressive when your goal is not far fetched.

If you want a torque monster I'd go with a set of mexican heads like 043's or brazilian G03's w/ 42x37. Kroc in Canada is a friend of mine and he does phenominal ports with those heads. Even the 40x35.5's flow unbelievable amounts of cfm for small ports.

Get an Fk8 with some CB 1.4 ratio rockers (comes with excellent tool steel cup adjusters). This will be easier on your valvetrain and valve springs. I'd still get sleeved lifter bores.

5.5 Scat with 3/8 rod bolts are beefy and will never let you down.

Big pig port exhaust ports do not help speed up exhaust port speed. Many guys will simply fluff and buff non ported exhaust 044 heads so that it creates a tight bend with port velocity. Turbo and Nitrous is a different story.

CB lifters will do well. The udo's will be reuseable with NO lifter/cam breakin. I'm such a lifter whore I have 4 sets of Udo's tool steels. I'll never buy anything else. I no longer have my 2 sets of NOS schubek ceramics due to the tool steels I purchased.

Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:38 am

obviously if i can get mid to low 12.s and keep reliability then i dont mind going a bit wild, full rev driveability is my main issue though, in the uk the only common options are cb and scat heads, cant seem to find any around would it be easy to sort out other types? would you stay with 42 x 37 valves just differtent porting? if i can get cheaper heads that are better suited a would spend saved money on udo becker followers! whats the advantage of 1 3/4 header instead of 1 5/8? would you still run 2.5 fatboy or larger?
if i go chevy journal rods they will give me better clearance? scat or cb rods?

Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:44 am

There is more than one way to skin a cat.
My 2332 With a DDS 11-1101 cam (I was told it was similar an Engle 110), Fumio welded and ported intakes and heads, Fumio designed exhaust, 48 IDA carbs, stuck in a stock weight 1970 Beetle it had the stock wheels, stock interior, jack and spare tire. The only mods were a close ratio transaxle out of a Baja bug, DDS drysump, Sway Away axles, nerf bars, Yokahama 205/15 rear tires not slicks. The Bug might have even heavier than stock. It ran consistant 13.1's in the 1/4.
Do you think with slicks, better gearing, some track suspension mods it would do high to mid twelves? Not to shabby for low rpm torque. On the street it was always in its power band. I'm sure I could produce near identical results with the 2276 engine Gerico built.

Speedy its time for you to start talking to engine builders such as DRD, Bergs, Steve Timms, Fumio, Mike Fischer, Anibal, Low Bugget, CB Performance, etc. They can sell you everything complete ready to assemble engine, carbs and transaxle you need that will work together the first time.

When the 13 second engine was not enough, a qiuck call to Dean Lowry solved that. Two weeks later and about $8000.00 poorer I returned with his old dragster, Dean's dual disc clutch set up and a pile of engine parts. The second time out it ran 9.90's and we were asked to leave the track due to lack of NHRA tech. Of course that engine ran 9,000 rpms.

Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:52 pm

I will be building this engine myself with a good friend who has built many flat 4's before,
theres not that many engine builders in uk that can also supply the parts and would like to build something based on previous history from people like me who are to actually own car and use weekly on the road,
all help is gratefully recieved!

so far ive got:-

super race case 8mm stud modded for bronze guides,
scat 84 crank chevy journals
scat 5.5 h-beam rods
94 piston and long barrels
cb rockers 1.4
fk8 cam
cb or udo becker lifters
cromo push rods
weber 48's with 38 vents
straight cut gears

not sure on;

cyl heads 044? valve size?
total seal rings
a1 merged header 1 5/8 or 1 3/4
a1 2.5 fat boy

Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:53 pm

just been lookingat my local drag strip and its 1/8 of a mile not 1/4, this is where ill be doing my drags every couple of months, may occasionally venture to santa pod i.e once a year!
would you suggest a slightly different set up for 1/8 drags?
looking at the history the best aircooled run so far has been 10,5
will i be able to beat that with this set up?

Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:13 pm

Your head builder will pick the valve size, carb size and exhaust size. Fumio flowed the heads with the exhaust on the heads for my 2332 engine. The valves were 40x35.5 and the exhaust was 1.5". Its time to get with a head porter Tell them what you have and take thier advice. Shipping by US mail is no big deal. You will be giving up a lot with out thier expertise. First you only wanted to run 13's. I never paid attention to my 1/8 times but if it is faster than 10.5 in the 1/4 you may will need a turbo engine (for driveabilitys sake a streetable NA VW engine is a very big stretch of the word streetable.) and a fully strip prepped chassis. If you are going to run both length tracks you will need two different transaxles for optimum times.

Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:29 am

the 10.5 time was for 1/8 mile track, so surely it will take another few secounds or more to get to 1/4?
trouble is i want to build this engine myself with my friend who hasnt built bigger than 2100.s before! im a mechanic and am happy building this,
i have a porter locally who is very good but he prefers parts in hand to see what there kile and how far he can go with them! he doesnt specialize in flay 4's,
surely theres a a selection of parts i can buy to get close to where i want to be with out someone else having to build it??

Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:17 am

Now we get more of the story. CB sounds the way to go since you can get them, CB also ships to Europe for individuals. Mike Fischer at Competition Engineering in Phoenix has custom ported CB 044 round port 40x35.5 valved heads for me in the past for customers street and off road engines. Cb makes the CNC mini wedge port head that flows well and the larger valved CNC round (round is also availiable in 40x35.5) and CNC Wedge port. Match ported intakes are availabe for all the heads. My very old DDS heads with 40x35.5 made for a 1776 flowed 600 lift flow 200 cfm similar to their CNC Ultra Mag Plus and , CNC wedge and CNC Ultra Wedge port heads do with the larger 42x37mm valves do but with smaller valves which increase the intake port air speed. At .650 lift you would be running a FK 97 or FK 98 cam Its time to e-mail Pat Downs at CB and ask which of thier head will work best for for your cam choice and mostly street driving. I'm thinking it may be the round or mini wedge since they probably have more air speed at lower lift levels than the wedge ports. He does have combinations that make 200+ hp on pump gas.

Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:25 am

Thank you thats very helpfull, i will e-mail him and see what he thinks!
i assume he can also give me advice on exhaust sizing and porting that will be required!
can you help with his e-mail address or web site?
whats youre opinion on total seal piston rings?