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Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:47 pm

With the success of the new "W" deck lids KSR is producing, they are considering reproducing Split fenders. They picked up a mint pair and sent them to their manufacturer to get an idea what it would cost to produce these. Now comes the moment of truth, what are they worth? If they are made to the same standards of their deck lids, and would be nearly indistinguishable form originals [same weight, and styling details], what would folks be willing to pay for a perfect split fender? Be realistic, if the price is to low, and not financially viable, then it won't happen.

Let me know.

-jeffrey

Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:10 pm

I'd pay $750.00 for a pair. Maybe more if they're top notch.

Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:18 pm

Fronts? Rears?

Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:29 pm

Fronts.

-jeffrey

Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:30 pm

$450.00 a pair

Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:37 pm

If the decklids go for 550 I'd have to say AT LEAST 1k for a pair of fenders.

And people would buy. Oh yes, they would buy. :wink:

EDIT: why even mess around. Do the rears too.

Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:59 pm

I'd say $200-$300 each would be pretty reasonable for a top notch repro fender. People WILL be picky though, especially at those price points. Not to say they wouldn't sell for more, but if they wanted to maximize volume.....

Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:35 pm

With or without the headlamp bucket?

If they were perfect, and require no modifications to make them fit and had the headlamp bucket, I would pay upto $1k for a pair.

Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:36 pm

Used early fender with the to correct headlight bucket for early cars kind of hard to find. I sold a repairable front fender way back for almost $200, that. Fender needed at least $250 in repairs if you add cost of labor and materials. If you all want to have available top quality parts opportunity is knocking. I would pay 1k for a quality set of ready To go fenders it seems like a no brainer. They should be good for early ovals also.

Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:40 pm

I have some experience in manufacturing with building and costing of die's and fixtures ( 27 yrs) and the tooling start up cost alone have got to be in the area of $15,000+ for fender, punching holes, bucket & wire tube. Then there's jigs / fixtures for assembly, welding (robotic would be best). I would like to see them go for $200- $300 each but you would have to sell 100 of them just to break even with start up costs. The sad reality in my humble opinion would be aminimum $700.00 each. I'm waiting for someone to offer a whole "split car kit" like they have for 69 Camaro's.

Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:59 pm

Definitely a great project and would be another achievement. But since I assume this would still be a business venture, I would have to suggest some caution here on this current approach, as I mentioned earlier in the decklid thread when it came to fenders.

The early success of the repro decklid is not a very strong indicator of what to expect for sales of fenders in my opinion, unless perhaps you were selling sedan decklids perhaps 4 to 1 over vert decklids right now, with a dozen or so moving consistently every few weeks, over say a period of 4-6 months.

Its the only way I can see a cost justification for precision tooling, which is based on an average per piece selling price in the $500 range (based on the decklid pricing). Since I don't know your exact tooling costs/capabilities I can only draw an approximate apples to apples comparison here to the decklids based on size/technical details, and that assumes the decklids will become a business success at some point based on the up front investment.

That said, if such a demand for sedan decklids remained strong over such a time period this data might just suggest that the above average to higher end restoration market for early cars is exceptionally strong. Thats the basis for quantifying what would be 4 different large press tools for each of the four fenders, or at least 2 different sets of tooling for either a front or rear set. I'm not sure which pair front or rears would be the most in demand sets to start with if you were just to test the initial market, and its just not clear what fenders are on their way to Asia at the moment for evaluation.

Next, it actually might be more constructive to perhaps start a few polls here, and I'd say definitely once you have a feel for the tooling costs. Then indicate a few optional ranges for price points that folks would be willing to pay and select anonymously, both separately for front and rear fenders. Run those polls for maybe a month here since you'll have 90% view rate at that point anyways, and then see what those selected price points tell you. Then assume 60% or so of the voters will actually buy, then back those numbers up against the tooling/startup costs and see if you think the numbers add up to justify pulling the trigger.

Alternatively as well, if the numbers look good, then possibly post a classified ad as well so that folks can contact you privately, to secure some firm orders, as not everyone who is reading along and/or lurking here is actually going to take the time to post or poll vote.

My gut feel is that a set of fronts would have to price out in the $1000 range including the h/l buckets which would be a must feature in my opinion, and maybe just under that price point for a set of rears. But again the project would only seem to make sense if you can indeed move the kind of quantities suggested above and then some for perhaps a year or so.

The 356 restoration market has some similar dynamics in this area, and even though there are sizable and measureable numbers of those cars undergoing complete show quality restorations at a given time, year after year, the numbers don't always add up to justify making everything, not even to Stoddard/NLA who just merged together, they may also be able to give you some other steps to think about as well.

So, suggest starting with some more effective data gathering polls perhaps, might get the ball rolling to the next step, wish the best of luck for it to happen though.

Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:04 pm

I've had my early 52 Standard "mostly" finished now for a little over two years. However, I have not run across the pre Oct 52 front wings anywhere yet. I probably wouldn't blink at $1K if the buckets were included. Plus, I could then sell the Oval ones that I have now to offset the shipping and painting.

On the exterior, this is the only part I really need. I might have to modify one of them to eliminate the horn grill hole on the driver's side, but that is not a big deal.

Whatever anyone says they will pay here, I would bet that they would pay more if as nice as I think we're taking about here. For the splits prior to the Zwitter, this is a hard part to find!

Ed, LASplit, (Kaefer-Nostalgie U.S.)

Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:11 am

I located in Sweden and I think that $350-400 each is a fair price, even up to $500 each.... and I olso think that 100 pairs can´t be hard to sell....
In my case i´m restoring a -55 early oval and I would rather use nice repro split fenders than ugly oval repros from ex brasil, even that the fenders are diffrent on my oval than on the splits ;).... for me the it´s very important that the fender is nice around the headlight....

Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:19 am

Put me down for a pair of Fronts and Rears.

I'd say $1,000.00 for a Front pair is reasonable.
Especially if they have the 'running board' flair and proper headlight buckets.
I paid somewhere around 1K for an NOS pair of Bullet Fenders.

Rears - $750-ish?

Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:34 am

Brezelwerks, that is the reason for this post. Just want to find out what the need is and how much folks would be willing to pay. If the numbers work out, then maybe it'll happen.

One other thing, KSR also produces a number of parts exclusively for Stoddard.

-jeffrey

Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:03 am

jhicken wrote: Brezelwerks, that is the reason for this post. Just want to find out what the need is and how much folks would be willing to pay. If the numbers work out, then maybe it'll happen.

One other thing, KSR also produces a number of parts exclusively for Stoddard.

-jeffrey

Just tend to believe that through a few simple polls you'd have have a much more effective and clearer view of the demand and how much folks would be willing to pay. Folks will surely participate.

A thread post on reproducing nice fenders will always excite a couple dozen folks here right up front, as some are that desperate for fenders that they would pay nearly anything and will push hard for KSR to do it. But that doesn't provide a realistic view of the size of the market, enough say to quantify the costs of the tools as a sanity check.

I'd say look if the tooling is dirt cheap for each fender, or if Nelson just wants to do it just because, then perhaps you have some latititude here, so maybe its just my past career/business experience in this area reacting with some some perspective that doesn't apply for some reason. What I do know is that by acquiring some real summarized easy to weed through volume data, it might just actually speed things along here on the project if nothing else, plus it only lowers the risk level involved by removing the hype, thats the intent of my input for consideration.

I'm also actually well aware what KSR reproduces for Stoddard/NLA and others, but exclusivity and name alone doesn't necessarily apply on a project of this scale. If KSR however was producing 356 fenders for Stoddard than perhaps you'd have some more helpful insight on what steps/metrics would be needed to quantify the project for early beetles.

Again I'm not actually saying don't do it, I just err on the side of doing due diligence on things of this scale at these price points, mainly so that the supply of these important parts could be produced ongoing, instead of being a one or two time run, like so many other parts and businesses over the years in this hobby that have pulled the plug on all kinds of things at some point when the numbers didn't add up.

Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:29 am

This post is only one metric, Nelson has been in touch with a few top restorers across the country as well. All this will help him decide what way to go. Thanks for your insight though. I'm getting the feeling that $400-600 for a complete front fender isn't out of the ball park for most. Whether or not that supports the effort has yet to be seen. Another source for H aprons is on the table as well. Although the ones from Sweden are nice, $700US is pricey.

Damn exchange rate!

-jeffrey

Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:24 am

I would spend 1K on a front set

Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:54 am

I would think fenders would be a bigger seller than decklids. They're the first to get smashed, rusted out, etc.

Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:02 pm

id say any thing over $500 would have to be damn near perfect...
id pay about 1K for a set if they match exactley