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Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:17 pm

if you look about midway up the last page, I was kind of invited into this conversation, either way, sorry about hijacking your thread.. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:20 pm

No problem, as long as they can get made. Currently KSR is looking at a big investment to get the dies made, if you can do it better and if they are spot on, thats what matters most.

-jeffrey

Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:39 pm

jhicken wrote: No problem, as long as they can get made. Currently KSR is looking at a big investment to get the dies made, if you can do it better and if they are spot on, thats what matters most.

-jeffrey

You are right. IF you both get them made it won't take people long to figure out which is the better one. Couple that with reasonable pricing and I think that sales will be good.

Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:47 pm

If the Funky Green guys can pull together the capital to do the fenders, It may not be necessary for another to do it. Let's see what Gearson can come up with.

-jeffrey

Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:56 am

Hello together,
some of you may know my Hebmuller panels from www.Blech-Manufaktur.de , a small company specialising in high quality vw parts reproduction. I just happened to see this thread.
Me too I have prepared all data for the split front fenders two years ago (forming method, stages for deep drawing and hemming the edges, draw die for the Lamp bucket and assembly jigs) based on original volkswagen drawnpart samples. I showed the 3d CADs at Veterama Mannheim in my company presentation, so at least some of the European guys may have seen it. If you want to achieve the original quality of the parts, you will need at least three drawing dies for each front fender (Fender panel, fender panel hemming of the outside edge and restrike of the inside edge and draw die for the lamp bucket. You may be able to replace hemming and restrike by hand panelbeating, but this would be at a loss of quality (see actual repros of asian pre 67 fenders). You cannot compare the complexity of the fender dieset with the w-decklid, as in the die for the w-decklid it is possible to press the outer panel and the upper reinforcement in just one drawdie. In addition, the Fenders are definetly not symmetric, so you have to do the reengineering work twice for both sides if you want to do it right (I know what I am talking about). I had planned to start the die hardware next spring after having finnished (partly gained back investment of) my Hebmuller-parts project. I just finnished the window frame dies last weekend.
Very interesting to me if somebody else is really reproducing the fenders. If so, I will stop my fender project. I hope the fenders will be in a good quality. The baddest thing that could happen is, that somebody comes up with a "80% quality" reproduction. As the market is really small, nobody would invest in dies for the same part in 100% quality anymore.
I am very sceptic about the "originality" of most of the asian made repros - sorry just my personnel experience - as even the sheet metal thickness of 0.8 mm is not responding the original.
Please let me know, if somebody of you really starts manufacturing the dies.
Aircooled greetings
Dirk
www.Blech-Manufaktur.de

Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:59 am

Don't knock all Asian reproductions, it depends on who is driving the project and their attention to detail. The "W" decklids that KSR is producing [Asian made] are pretty damn close. I haven't had anyone find a significant fault in them yet. KSR knows about the complexity of the dies to make the fenders properly, currently the dies alone for the two front fenders are pretty pricey [250k+]. He's watching how the sales of the decklids go. So far in 6 weeks he's sold everything that has come in [so far so good]. Time will tell.

-jeffrey

Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:24 pm

jhicken wrote: Don't knock all Asian reproductions, it depends on who is driving the project and their attention to detail. The "W" decklids that KSR is producing [Asian made] are pretty damn close. I haven't had anyone find a significant fault in them yet. KSR knows about the complexity of the dies to make the fenders properly, currently the dies alone for the two front fenders are pretty pricey [250k+]. He's watching how the sales of the decklids go. So far in 6 weeks he's sold everything that has come in [so far so good]. Time will tell.

-jeffrey

I don't believe Dirk is knocking all Asian reproductions here, its just his shared experience with "most" as he stated, and I agree with him. In the time I spent in a prior career between Taiwan and mainland China not too long ago, monitoring new product development and volume manufacturing operations there, nomatter what the technical abilities may be on site, attention to detail is something that has to be carefully monitored from design through to production, not an easy task nomatter who has done what before, many things get lost in translation, even the simplest of details cannot be assumed, so alot of hand-holding is and likely always be required for many reasons.

When you have direct experience and knowledge on what is being manufactured things go much smoother and faster, and when you really don't know what you are making and for what market, for what are usually very particular customers in this niche, you can easily end up with problems and compromises that get made, and ultimately those kinds of things can put some decent sized players right out of business fast. Dirk is also giving us all the inside scoop of whats involved here and its not trivial and I suspected also that the tooling for one fender would equal the cost of one W vert decklid, expensive. Plus we're not talking a mostly single stamping or perhaps an automated series of progressive dies to make these happen, to achieve a repeatable degree of top quality there is going to be some real finesse involved that may or may not be achievable by just tooling, alot may come down to "who" actually fabricates these.

That said, KSR is clearly a qualified manufacturer to take on such a product, but I suspect their process to make these happen would cost alot more (at $250K as mentioned) and take twice as long to complete versus these two other rather fully vertically integrated on-site smaller operations such Blech or Gerson here. I also don't think its an issue for either of them to pull together the capital to make them happen given the moderate size of their operations, sort of as owner-operators, its a big advantage. So I see these smaller players with the knowledge and technical know-how as very capable making these happen for alot less than $250K up front.

I agree though, now there are 3 different groups looking at making these front fenders, 2 of which are down the road a bit already in the design stage. These guys really should openly discuss perhaps privately just who is how far along etc. I don't suspect any of the 3 need to make front fenders to earn a living at this point, but these upfront costs could be a very costly decision for the second and even third supplier here should they choose to actually compete which I see as simply foolish. As I've said before, and while some folks have difficulty understanding this concept; just because you can make something doesn't mean you should actually make it.

I also don't believe the market is anywhere big enough for more than one producer of split front fenders. If anything one guy should do the fronts and perhaps the other guy the rears or something, at least be smart and practice what I call "coopertition". But note if it takes selling upwards of 250+ pairs of front fenders before you even break even, its going to be a long long time before any money is made on front fenders. So it would be wise if perhaps these guys could work out who is doing what since each of these guys produces other key items out there that most would hate to see be put at future risk.

Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:51 pm

A question I haven't seen answered is will they be making early split front fenders or late ones?

The original ones on my October 49 have a distinctively different headlight bucket (much deeper) and the contour from the edge of the bucket out to the rolled edge looks somewhat different although I have not measured it in any way to be sure.

Real connoisseurs of the early splits claim to be able to tell these early fronts from the later fronts for a distance.

Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:35 am

I don't care who makes them or how! I just need a good pair!

Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:02 pm

I have bought panels from Gerson, I have touched and felt the east coast decklids - I have a complete "KD kit" of a Heb in my garage from Dr.D - I feel I know what I am talking about. I am NOT putting down anybody - but without a doubt my vote goes to Dr. D! The Split world is not big enough for three players, so why not go for top notch to begin with?

Dr. D is responsibe for press tool design for the biggest Merecedes and even the Maybach - there is very very few in this hobby that know this craft better than him. If I ever put a repro fender on my Split, I sure hope it comes from Dr.D's workshop in Stuttgart.

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:10 pm

I too believe this is hands down also. And it sounds like Dr. D is a bit ahead of the game already.

I too would rather purchase the best quality as would most split owners.

I don't want an "80% quality" reproduction fender produced. Wouldn't that just plain suck. :x

I think it's the difference between someone who does it for LOVE v.s. MONEY

Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:27 pm

Dr D may be producing some awesome panels but if a Heb decklid comes in at $4500 US, I'd hate to see what his price might be for a pair of fenders.
If split fenders are too expensive, you don't have to be a genius to know few will sell. I myself would think $500 each is a good price, cheaper would be even better. The more affordable the price, the more that will sell. Maybe I'm wrong or just too cheap or too poor.

Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:53 pm

banana split wrote: Maybe I'm wrong or just too cheap or too poor. X2

Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:35 am

I did also have thoughts about make them splitfenders for a couple years ago, but I have quite good contact with Dirk and we did talk about it and both me and Dirk are on the same page regarding that it is way to much money involved for 2 companys (or more) making the same tools.

Anyway, I hope they will be made, I will not do it for sure and I hope Dirk will be abel to go all the way with them.

A dialog between the sheetmetal manufacture would be a really good thing for all involved I think. :)

Cheers / Wolf

Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:00 pm

I know split and oval fenders are slightly different, but the oval market is MUCH bigger. Prices per unit might be lower but units you can sell would be much, much higher. Secondly you could sell these oval fenders without horn pressings, making it relatively easily to create "split" fenders out of them (both standard and deluxe). Don't deny that many fenders on splits are already welded up oval fenders at the moment. Wolfsburg West and other are already selling the bullet weld-ons so the US clients can adapt these pretty easily too.

Or maybe I am badly informed and there is already someone making okay repro oval fenders :?: In that case please let me know :!:

Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:32 am

This one is sold last sunday......
http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&...AA:BE:1123

Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:21 pm

The one that got away......

Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:31 pm

There are still some out there.....
But not that often and that nice... :cry:

Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:45 am

Wolf1 wrote:

A dialog between the sheetmetal manufacture would be a really good thing for all involved I think. :)

Couldn't agree more. In addition to Wolf Parts (www.wolfparts.com)in Sweden, in the UK we've got Hookys Panel Shop (http://www.hookyspanelshop.com/) and Autocraft Engineering (http://www.autocrafteng.co.uk/) all making very high quality parts for early Beetles. Figure in KSR and Dr. D, and potentially many previously obsolete or unobtainable parts are available, which is good for us, the Split owner/restorer.
However, if all of these companies are working on the same products, then there is potential for some parts not to be made. For example, two or three companies could release front fenders and none release rears, which would be a real shame as all would have spent money developing tooling, and possibly none would make their money back.
All concerned need to sit down and decide who will make what, then that dream of being able to go to the local VW parts house to buy split bits may become a reality.

Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:14 am

Neil Davies wrote: , then that dream of being able to go to the local VW parts house to buy split bits may become a reality.

And just before that nightmare day comes I will sell mine and go and buy a more unusual car :? :lol: