TheSamba.com :: View topic - UBR SLO update -- I blew a seal and wet my pants!! (LONG!)

Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:20 pm

For reference, my car is a 1970 standard Beetle with a 1600DP 34pict3 with a CBperf SVDA carb and is tuned to factory specs otherwise...

Yesterday my wife, my 9-month old daughter, and I all made the trip to the Volksfest 2008 car show here in Ohio. Probably the largest aircooled show in Ohio, as they said at the show they had over 300-registrants this year! (Sorry no pictures taken of/at the show, busy and crazy day!)

We had a half dozen cars caravan-cruise from Cleveland to Columbus (~180 miles each way) of which 3 of us had aircooled Beetles and 3 watercooled VWs. About halfway thru the cruise I had been alerted by a new friend (solar649 on these forums) that my bug was spraying oil up onto his nice white 1981 mexican Bug (which is for sale, btw). We decided to pull off the road, but the watercooled guys were a bit ahead of us, so they kept going (pffbt!) -- and we pulled into a gas station off the expressway.

Immediately upon parking, I looked underneath the car to see a nice flow of oil coming from out the motor. I had noted a "drop" of oil (quarter-size spot under the car) which was coming from the motor/trans meeting spot, and trickling down the trans dripping from the tranny drain plug .. but this was FAR worse. My car dumped a good 1/2-qt oil on the parking lot of the gas station.

We limped the car over to the truck stop on the other side of the expressway and bought some spare oil (2 extra qts of Valvoline 15w40, but I actually had 1qt with me of Brad-Penn 10w30). We had hoped they would have some Engine Stop Leak (STP) but they did not .. so we figured if I had to top off, the thicker 15w40 might not seep out as quickly. I topped off (1/2qt) with the Valvoline and drove the rest of the way to the show. We had been cruising at 70-75mph and there were some hills too, where my car was definitely running low on power and struggling. (My car has a roof rack and it was fully packed, so I know that didn't help, plus 2 adults & 1 kid in the car).

Back on the expressway we kept it under 65mph and rolled the next 1.5 hours to the show. My two caravaners expressed to me (once at the show) that my oil spray was far less (although still there ever so slightly). During the duration of the time we spent at the show (over 3 hours) there was a leak from the car still at the front end of the motor, but not quite as much leaked at the show as what I lost at the gas station prior, so it seemed to have slowed down. I checked my oil level before leaving the show and it was not enough to need a top off.

Sidebar: My motor has always ran hot since the day I bought this car back in early May. The valves have been adjusted to 0.006" and the timing to 7.5deg BTDC idle (vacuum hose removed) and approximately 30deg BTDC at high RPM. I've also used my local shop (Streetsboro Foreign Auto) and he has said that he feels everything is in spec. He has re-shimmed the fan/alternator, new spark plugs, new needle in the carb, double-checked timing/valves/idle speed, etc. Short of rebuilding the carb entirely or checking compression, we've gone over most everything. He said that it appears all the tinware is in place .. and he scratched his head saying he is clueless why my motor runs so hot. The previous owner had it rebuilt by some "small town guy" and while I have those receipts, I question the work. The previous owner claimed the guys prices were cheaper than most, but perhaps you get what you pay for, eh? Wish I knew what was causing the hot running. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions on this hot running issue, please let me know.

Back to my story... the car drove fine home and again we kept it under 65mph. While it drove okay on the way home (and again I was told there was a smallest of small spray of oil from under the car onto my follower) we did stop at dinner to find my motor was VERY hot to the touch (see above paragraph -- it has always been WAY too hot to even touch the dip stick even on just a 5-10min drive around town!). About 20-minutes before I got home the rain rolled in and HARD! Before we knew it everyone on the expressway was traveling around 45-50mph which was fine by me .. although my roof rack might not like the wetness.

Once home, we unpacked the car from the trip and I found there was water on the carpet! It was isolated to one very specific spot -- just in front of the battery, below/behind the passenger side front seat. I'm not sure where it was coming in from but I'd wager one possible guess is the bolt for the inner seatbelt anchor. I just had my floorpans replaced (body-on) so if anyone has any thoughts or comments on this leak let me know. All my good tools are at my Dad's house where his 2-post lift is my treat for working on the car, so not having a deep socket with me prevents me from removing the battery to look for leaks there. I've gotten most of the moisture out for now to prevent future issues, but would like any input as to where to look for leaks so I can silicone or fix it immediately!

A few people seem to think the front motor end leak is probably from having blown the main seal (hey, don't get personal, hehe!) .. and that dropping the motor and repalcing the seal isn't a difficult task they have said... anyone have any thoughts on that? Also I was told that beyond the gasket, I need some sort of special tool -- can anyone point me in the direction of the parts and tools I would need? Thanks!!

Thanks for taking the time to read my saga. I sort of wish that money were no object right now because I'd love to have a motor/trans in the car that would allow me to drive 75mph on the expressway even up inclines and not have to worry about it. I'd love to know my motor is more solid than it has proven to be from the prior rebuild. But hey, money doesn't grow on trees. Right now I just want to fix the leak and maybe figure out the hot-running issue... because I bought this car to drive and it seems after every time I drive it, more new issues spark up. Grrr...... but I still love this car to bits!!! Hope to get some good feedback and replies.... tootles! - Ari

(EDIT) -- Just for a side note reference ... as you folks read this and perhaps try to cyber-diagnose my car, be aware that my car starts GREAT when cold (ambient, sitting for hours/overnight). However, once the car is warmed up, it tends to not start great. Aside from a toasty engine bay, I have noted what I belive to be vapor lock. The car will eventually start, but it takes 20secs of cranking (replenishing fuel in lines/carb?) to get it going again. The needle vavle was replaced by my shop because he felt the carb was flooding, but my symptoms better match that of vapor lock and have continued since then... so that is something else to add to my small list of motor annoyances. :(

Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:50 pm

If the leak is coming from the front of the engine (front of car) from between the engine and transmission, then you may very well have blown the main seal. Your symptoms are the same as when I blew mine... Make sure it's not coming from higher up though.

Pulling the motor and replacing the seal is pretty easy. You will need the seal, flywheel lock, and seal install tool. I used the 'econo' seal tool and it worked well. Might want to consider replacing the gland nut while you are at it. Also check the end play, although I hope your mechanic did that when he replaced the flywheel.

This tool helps with r/r of the gland nut, but is not necessary.

Just make sure it's what you need before going through all the work.

I think you owe someone a car wash too...

Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:56 pm

Hey bud.. Well it was great meeting you and the family too.. you were all great and really made us feel welcomed to the vw family.. As was everyone we met..

Well to your problem.. The more I thught about the issue yesterday the more ideas I had.. I think you your have the same oil leak that the rest of us have.. We all know the leak.. With that. you are having over heating issues.. major issues.. I think that what happened. was we were trying to push to hard and the high speed with higher RPM and your extreme heat- your oil thinned out so much that the front seal just would no longer hold it.

That is why once we let is sit and cool down some the oil tickened up some and the seal resettled to the way it was suppose to be.. So the leak slowed down.. You didnt leak nearly as much on the way home.. I had no spray on the windshield and saw no smoke out of the car..

So to the possible fixes.. - first lets check the thermostat. make sure it is opening and closing correctly. Then clean the engine really well. get any dirt and grease off the jugs.. So the fins can transfer the heat better.
then change out that oil.. I think it really got cooked yesterday.. so It probibly is shot at this point.. I am thinking you were probibly pushing up words of 280- 300 degrees on that oil.. I know I couldnt even touch the engine with out getting burned and it stayed hot..

I went with a full synthetic 30w oil.. no 5w30 or 10w30. just 30w. I saw a 10 degree drop with that change..

Ok, hard start when hot.. that one is easy.. I saw the problem when we were looking at the car.. with it running so hot. it is boiling the gas in the line and carb.. I saw it boilng in the filter, and could hear it boiling in the carb.. So once the temp issue is solved it will most likely help the hot start issues..

Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:40 pm

Steve -- thanks for the prompt reply. Why are you ALWAYS the first person to reply to my threads? STALKER! LOL jk ... and yeah thanks for the links. I need to order those parts, but I just found out my refridge at home is shot (no frost on coils, so i think bad condensor, so probably needs replaced) -- so money for home stuff first. Otherwise my wife might kill me. Ha!

As for the oil coming from higher up ... i didn't see anything to indicate such -- but i have a feeling i'd need to drop the motor to be sure. There was no oil in the motor/engine bay, nothing behind the fan shroud or anything else... so i'm going to say i'm fairly sure its the seal as mentioned.

Jason -- yep, great to meet you too. Yeah I figured the oil in there was pretty much toast. What really sucks is that I just sunk some serious cash into this oil - the Brad Penn 10w30 stuff. It came highly recommended on a few sites and stuff... I hear ya on the straight 30-weight stuff though. So based on that, i'd like to use that first if we can... i mean sure 10degF savings would be nice, but you already know my problems are deeper than that! Once its gone, i may swap to 30w straight.

If what you are saying is true about the weight of the oil, the leak from the heat, and so forth ... then it still baffles me as to WHY it just started now. Especialyl since prior I had been using the Castrol GTX 20w50 that everyone normally suggests. But... is my 5w30 thinner than the 20w50 I was using? If that is the case then that might explain the sudden leak, huh? This was my FIRST big trip (over 40min consecutive drive) with the new oil -- think maybe that is why it just now go worse?!

BTW .. my car has no thermostat. Looking at the back of the doghouse the angle of the flapper-arms for the 'stat indicate they are open (and they dont want to budge) -- but i assume the only way to make 100% sure it to drop the motor to better see the flapper arms, right? I couldn't figure out otherwise how to see them. But they "appear" to be open.. better to be stuck open than closed, they say...

Bottom line though is that the leak appears to be the front main seal behind flywheel, and that needs replaced. However, I'm still VERY fearful of how quick it will fail again if we can't get the motor to run right. Assuming we double check AGAIN the rpm, timing, valves, etc ... then my worry is that its running so hot because of something else odd ... maybe the carb? ... hopefully we can fix it. And hey, Jason .. you have a compression checker? We should probably do that while we're at it.

Drop me a line as to when you can/want to work on the car. Since you've offered to help, I'll say we can use my father's lift and make easy work of it but thats a hike for you. I'll prob call you sometime this week or something, but we should chat about that. I guess I need to order the parts first tho... grrr.....

Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:43 pm

2002sportside wrote: Also check the end play, although I hope your mechanic did that when he replaced the flywheel.

Hopefully my mechanic did that when he did the clutch job, eh?! But ... there is no end play problem on the other end (pulley) .. that I checked after the leak to see. I assume if there was end play you could feel it at either end regardless, right?

(edit) ... 12:13 AM ... why am I still awake?! Anyhow, I just placed my order with CIP1. Since I had to meet the $25 minimum (before shipping), I went ahead and got a spare flywheel seal just in case. I also got myself a spare accel and clutch cable, two items I didn't have in my tool box that I figured would be nice to have. I like to take trips that are a few hours from home and want to know I've got the parts/tools needed.

It is funny but... LA Products (a local source for me) carries lots of items and probably had most/all of these parts. However with gas prices as they are and since my Beetle isn't ideal to drive ... it actually is CHEAPER for me to have this stuff shipped to Ohio from CIP1 than it is to drive 80-miles round trip to get the stuff myself. I found that interesting...

Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:24 pm

As for the water leak #1 thought is you have a boor vapor barrier behind the door panel. There should be a plastic "sheet" glued to the door under the panel not allowing the water that travels down inside the door to get at the door panel or inside the car.

#2 Is a rust hole or leak at the front inner fender AKA front heater channel area behind the front tire, water gets into the heater channel and if a lot of it does it will leak IN before it leaks OUT.

Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:09 am

DrDarby wrote: As for the water leak #1 thought is you have a boor vapor barrier behind the door panel. There should be a plastic "sheet" glued to the door under the panel not allowing the water that travels down inside the door to get at the door panel or inside the car.

#2 Is a rust hole or leak at the front inner fender AKA front heater channel area behind the front tire, water gets into the heater channel and if a lot of it does it will leak IN before it leaks OUT.

Thank you for the reply. What was really odd is that my carpet is pretty well glued down, but I touched every square inch of the carpet and the only water areas were really low. I tried hard to find where it may have come down from the door but didn't find anything there. I recently replaced both door panels (well my body shop installed them). I'll have to consider that, then, too.

Since my body shop did the door panel install, as well as the new pans, the new battery tray area, and they also glued the carpets... I may just take it to them to inspect/resolve. We shall see.... thanks for your input!

Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:45 am

Your passengers and upholstery will thank you.

Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:41 am

if you have an unidentified leak, drive thru an autmated car wash, or, if you have freinds and a leak, have one of them hose down the car while you are in it.

Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:26 pm

wsniderokc wrote: if you have an unidentified leak, drive thru an autmated car wash, or, if you have freinds and a leak, have one of them hose down the car while you are in it.

Yeah but I think it was coming from under the car maybe, during the heavy rains we just had. Not 100% sure tho.... but good idea. I'll make my wife wash the car while i cat-nap in the back and watch for leaks... LOL

Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:21 pm

Was the water in the battery tray area as well or just on the carpet in front of it? It is possible that there may be a hole where the body meets the pan or when I watched the Bug Me DVD's, with a body on, they notch the pan. When the shop installed them, they may have left a gap on accident. My dad's 75 has a mystery leak with the same symptoms that we think we may have found body/rear support rot, but the should have found that when they changed them. I did mine body off so I'm good. I would have someone hit the passenger rear inner wheel well with a hose, take out the rear seat and watch to see where it's coming from. Don't know if you can simulate the downpour from Saturday with a hose though, it was nuts at my place (Youngstown area).

Looked for you at the show from the pics in the post, must've got there after I left. LA products will give a lot of good advice as will Streetsboro. PM me for info on who to avoid.

Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:35 pm

Matt ... the water was not a "pool" around the battery ... the body shop did replace that portion of the pan too though.. so I looked but the only real "damp" spot was the carper in front of the battery. Beyond that it was hard to tell any other spots of wetness... very odd. Yeah it was a MONSOON ... about 15miles from home it was horrid, and we couldnt see far enough to go over 40mph... everyone else was doing the same on the expressway. VERY slow going..

While a hose may not actually replicate that, if I can find the "spot" .. then a hose should suffice. Really it just needs to be high enough water pressure at the 'bad' spot to cause problems/leaks. Again I may just take it to my body shop and let them try to fix/replicate it. Especially because if they find a mistake they made my guy wont charge me.. long time customer / friend. :) So we'll see.

Sorry you didn't see me at the show. Because of the slow going ride and some other factors, we didnt arrive until almost 12-noon. At which point they parked me way up at the end near the street/entrance. So depending on where you were, yeah you wouldn't have seen me. Bummer .. but i'll be around for a while so if not this show, you'll see me again hopefully!

I've been using Streetsboro exclusively for my service on things I don't want or trust myself to do. And I've been giving LA products much of my parts business, although I work near Euclid Foreign Auto for parts, too. As for the places to avoid, I'd be curious to hear what you have to say there... drop me a line if you want. ;)

Ciao! - Ari

Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:32 am

have u checked to make sure ur thermostat flaps still have the spring holding them open?
i ask cos a mate had the local garage install a new engine a month ago and he said it just wasnt running right
so i had a look and the spring was missing and the flaps were shut :shock: (no thermostat cos of the exhaust system)
no wonder it was cooking
while u have engine out doing the seal i would pull atleast the shroud off and check that everything is at it should be

dads motor had a chrome 36hp shroud
when we took it off one of the deflectors had falled down on top of the cylinders and was blocking air flow to them off

Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:34 am

Buggin_74 wrote: have u checked to make sure ur thermostat flaps still have the spring holding them open?

Nope, I personally have NOT done that. The only time the motor has been out of the car in the months I've owned the car was when my local mechanic replaced the clutch/flywheel/starter for me very early on in my ownership. He said that I have the right shroud/fan in the car, but I doubt he checked the flaps.

However, I do know that the flaps wont move back/forth right now when I grab the arms you can see on the front-side of the shroud tin. So I am lead to believe they are tied/stuck open as they should be, based on the angle of the arms and the pictures I've seen on here indiciating such. But I will double check that when I pull the motor for the front seal, thanks!