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Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:41 pm

I went and looked at a squareback this weekend, looked it all over, and was pretty pleased with it, till I drove it. It was the first time I drove an air cooled VW since 1990 or so. It scared the shit out of me. I was white knuckled the whole time. It had alot of play in the steering and the brakes seemed really soft, not the best combo for driving down a winding canyon road. I had this overwhelming fear the whole time I drove it. I was sure that if anything happened, anything at all, a racoon jumping out in front of me, or a blown tire I was going to die, the car felt like a light, thin, cheap deathtrap.

I don't remember these cars feeling that way, my daily drivers are always newer, and my fun cars have always been early 50's to mid 60's full size American cars. Am I just spoiled to big heavy cars? Was that just a worn out crappy squareback? I'm contemplating not getting another air cooled VW because of this. Should I try and drive another one first? Someone enlighten me please.

Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:47 pm

yes, drive another one. all that you said is uncharacteristic of a well maintained type 3, but totally in line for a neglected one

Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:52 pm

ACVWs are not as stable as the average econocar today. Suspension technology has come a long way!

That said, you can make real improvements by getting it back to a stock condition.
1) Replace rear spring plate bushings.
2) Lube front end and check ball joint condition; lube BJs.
3) Check tie rod ends; lube and replace boots
4) Adjust wheel bearings.
5) AFTER all this is done, adjust the steering box per Bentley--don't just tighten up the top screw. Be prepared for a LOT of trial and error until it is tight (1" at therim) but NOT too tight.
6) Have a 4-wheel alignment done. Pay special attentin to toe-in. Err on the high side.
7) Check your shocks.

All these things will degrade with age, and collectively really foul up the dynamic stability.

I did all this, replacing a few parts along the way, and it made a WORLD of difference. I used to have to have both hands and even freeway grooves were scary. Anything over 60 and it felt uneasy. Now it's not nearly so stressful I drove to work yesterday, 75 much of the way, and it is far more stable and unstressful. One hand even over bumps. It hasn't been that way since it was pretty new, so all that work really paid off.

Still not as good as a modern car, but it's in the neighborhood again. At this age, it's not one big thing, it's the sum of all the little things above.

Oh, and I redid all the brakes. Probably the master and flex lines made the worst of age. Turn the rotors and maybe have Jim Adney rebuild the calipers. I can brake with hands off the wheel now--another change from the past 10 yars or more! A combo of good brakes and alignment.

Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:00 pm

Did the T-3 you drove even still have a T-3 front axle in it??
Was the car lowered to an extreme??
Were the brakes needing work??

Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:11 pm

Russ Wolfe wrote: Did the T-3 you drove even still have a T-3 front axle in it??
Was the car lowered to an extreme??
Were the brakes needing work??

I believe the car I drove was stock, wasn't lowered at all. As far as the brakes go, ya got me, they did stop the car, didn't sound bad, and didn't pull. Can't put my finger on what it was but something about it was scary.

Thanks everyone for the insight, I'll probably track down another one to test drive.

Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:58 pm

Enos Burdette wrote: I don't remember these cars feeling that way, my daily drivers are always newer, and my fun cars have always been early 50's to mid 60's full size American cars. Am I just spoiled to big heavy cars? Was that just a worn out crappy squareback?

Probably both. A big, front-heavy American land yacht goes in a straight line very well. It may wallow in corners, but it is nominally stable, and understeering to boot.

The tail-heavy VW is a different animal. It is responsive and narrow. So it will react to the road more, and exhibit more bump steer and other disconcerting behavior.

However, what you describe is a car that is worn and out of adjustment. but that shouldn't disqualify the purchase. If you do it yourself it is a combo of your time and relatively cheap parts. Most 40 year old cars will require this kind of work, and it's both easier and cheaper to do on these cars, if you have the knowledge (like here on the Samba).

I've found steering is the most neglected part of most old VWs. Brakes, too. Drivers tend to compensate for wear, and change their driving habits (slower, both hands on the wheel, anticipating bump steer, etc) without realizing it consciously. Don't drive it for a while, and when you get back in it scares you!

But that neglect is often easily rectified with nothing more serious than a new steering gear and a bunch of attention to the little things. I doubt anything but a restoration will be in perfect condition, and they will ask a premium. Often this is an area where you can bargian down the seller and get it in better shape fast and cheap after the sale.

Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:16 pm

A modern car they're not, but wear and tear will make the ride even worse. I'd go down the list above and see what needs looking at/replacing.

THAT said, I drove my Notch last thursday and was amazed at how comfortable it was, even at 75. The freeway to my house has nice, new, smooth asphault on it and that helped. However, she was dtill pretty nice at speed. I'm looking forward to getting time to install the Bert's spindles as the drive will improve even more!

Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:25 pm

Enos Burdette wrote: Russ Wolfe wrote: Did the T-3 you drove even still have a T-3 front axle in it??
Was the car lowered to an extreme??
Were the brakes needing work??

I believe the car I drove was stock, wasn't lowered at all. As far as the brakes go, ya got me, they did stop the car, didn't sound bad, and didn't pull. Can't put my finger on what it was but something about it was scary.

Thanks everyone for the insight, I'll probably track down another one to test drive.

My brakes felt like putting my foot into a bowl of hot cereal, until as part of the process of getting it truly roadworthy, I flushed and changed the brake fluid to D.O.T.-5. Later, I found out it had been over four years, and it is supposed to be done every two, otherwise it becomes contaminated with water and gunk, and does not provide good pressure.

D.O.T.-5 I.M.H.O. is the only way to go. Good for the environment, and good for you autos/cars. Benefits are:
good for a lifetime
does not absorb water
not as toxic as non-synthetic
non-corrosive
wide operating temperature range
purple color shows the level in the reservoir better than the clear
There maybe some I have forgotten...

After I change the transmission fluid, I will be all synthetic. The only foreign petroleum dependency will be for gasoline, which also aids in being good stewards of the Earth as Gott commanded.

Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:08 pm

Check the sway bar and torsion bar retainer bolts on the front beam, they have a way of loosening themselves over time.
This can cause bad front end alignment and erratic handling, or worse :shock:
It's a fairly simple, free fix; which will improve the overall stability and tracking.
Torque on the sway bar should be 7ft.lbs.
I over-torque it - not too much- just about 15-20lbs, back it out, then retorque it to be sure. 7lbs isn't a lot; if it has slid out at all, a slight bit of resistance can give a false reading.
Remember the locking plate.

The torsion bar bolts are torqued to 29 ft.lbs.

Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:41 pm

BSQUARE wrote: Check the sway bar and torsion bar retainer bolts on the front beam, they have a way of loosening themselves over time.
This can cause bad front end alignment and erratic handling, or worse :shock:
It's a fairly simple, free fix; which will improve the overall stability and tracking.
Torque on the sway bar should be 7ft.lbs.
I over-torque it - not too much- just about 15-20lbs, back it out, then retorque it to be sure. 7lbs isn't a lot; if it has slid out at all, a slight bit of resistance can give a false reading.
Remember the locking plate.

The torsion bar bolts are torqued to 29 ft.lbs.

X2! How could I forget this? It is one of the most common sources of play in a T3, little-known by many owners. Check it first by rocking the front of the car left and right, while holding your thumb at the pivot point where the upper arm dives into the beam.

Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:24 pm

Is it possible that the front tires were inflated to the pressure on the side wall? I know I made this mistake some 19 years ago, when I didn't know any better. :roll: Well, that and the upper sway bar end being loose will do that. Just a couple of thoughts.

Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:36 pm

Try driving another one. But keep in mind the car going on 40 years old. Drive anything 40 years old in a simular state of disrepair and it will be the same. If the body on that car was good with no rust, and the price is good, and it runs good, buy it. Mechanicals are the easy part. I buy a body and work with the rest. When you get it all right, youll know whats been done, and how well its been done. Figure out the price of what you cant do yourself into the negotation when you buy the car. My last bus drove HORRIFIC when I bought it, turns out, adjusting and bleeding the brakes, a shift coupler, new tie rods and it drove 100 times better. Maybe $50 in parts and an afternoon? I usually end up doing all new brakes and rubber lines on any car I buy anyways so they are a non issue.

Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:43 pm

My 69 square only has about 1/2" pedal travel on the brakes and stops good! I'm sure those brakes could have been helped a lot prolly with just a good bleeding/adjustment and/or shoes & pads?

Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:35 pm

If the rest of the car is in acceptable condition; use the 'needs a whole bunch of suspension work and completely new brakes to be safe to drive' approach as bargaining leverage.
You might be able to convince the seller that the car is a POS deathbox, and (s)he should get rid of it cheap - to you.
It probably does need that, but it isn't difficult or expensive if you do it yourself. Just somewhat labor intensive. A great way to get to know your new car.
Besides, it's work you'd probably have to or want to do to just about any new-to-you Type 3.
But the seller doesn't know that.
Hope it works out for you.

Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:36 pm

Quote: However, what you describe is a car that is worn and out of adjustment. but that shouldn't disqualify the purchase. If you do it yourself it is a combo of your time and relatively cheap parts. Most 40 year old cars will require this kind of work, and it's both easier and cheaper to do on these cars, if you have the knowledge (like here on the Samba).

I couldn't agree more. As far as suspensions are concerned the type 3 front end is pretty easy to overhaul and the results can be dramatic. Probably one of the most satisfying jobs I've done on mine in the instant gratification department.

FYI. '69 and later cars('68 with automatic) with IRS suspension will handle and ride better than earlier cars with a swingaxle.

Handling and ride are generally better in cars with stock or near stock ride height.