TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:20 pm

Hi, I recently became a Westy owner a month ago and I am at the bottom of the Westy learning curve. I found a 1989 one owner Westy with 55K on it that was owned by a retired couple. Overall it's in great condition and lightly used inside. The stainless steel cover/tray over the stove burners still has the factory plastic wrap on it.

Now the mystery, I was underneath the westy looking around and thankfully notice the front driver side tire has been rubbing the upper control arm. I recently had Les Schwab put 27 x 8.5/14 LT tires on it. The passenger side probably has 3-5mm of clearance between the tire and upper control arm.

I've checked that the air pressure is equal and haven't found an excessive play anywhere. I pulled the tire off and found an odd shaped washer with a offset hole in it laying up by the shock tower. The Westy has been in some sort of wreck, to me it looks like did a 360 going down a icy hill and lightly got banged up on all 4 sides. Also the paint and body work looks like a hack job, it makes me wonder if the body shop did any frontend work did they leave out some parts. I know one washer was probably not put back.

I also notice the front passenger rim has a dent in it, looks like it hit a curb pretty hard and folded of the lip where the tire bead lies. I think Les Schwab rotated the wheels around so I don't know if that one came from the drivers side.

In theory I am leaving Friday morning on a 400 mile trip and I am looking for a quick fix. How can I make some adjustment to get the tire away from the control arm?

Will tweaking the camber out get the wheel away from the control arm? I am not that worried about screwing up the tire wear, it's only going to be driven a few thousand miles a year. How about high grade washers as spaces between the wheel and rotor? I prefer not to grind back the control arm since I know the clearance is fine on the passenger side.

Thoughts appreciated?

Steve

Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:01 pm

I have a new clue, the upper control arm is off and that offset washer I found laying on the frame matches the washer that came out when I pulled the long bolt that holds the control arm in place. It's amazing that the frontend felt tight and drove perfectly straight with only one camber washer in place. I don't have a manual yet so I don't know what the real name of that washer is. I can't believe 1. somebody left that washer out 2. it was still laying on the frame and 3. the front was tight.

I hoping with that sucker in place it solves the clearance issue. Of coarse the bolt spun by thought to mark it so the camber is really going to be whacked now.

Steve

Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:24 am

You can eyeball the camber to within a degree or two. then check the toe in. You must have 0 or a tiny amount of toe in. Tow out and driving will be very nervous.
Or, just take it to a shop and pay them $60. Easily worth it when diving one that is scarey.
Al

Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:41 am

69DoubleCab, thanks for the tip on eye balling camber. I need that one as it's off at the moment.

I put the missing camber adjustment washer back in, now at least I have one on each side of the control arm. I played with the camber and that didn't provide the clearance needed. I did a closer inspection of the control bearings and upper ball joint, they all seem tight. However when I was cleaning up the control arm it has yellow markings on it like it came from a junk yard and is labeled as an 86. My westy is an 89 however I think the control is the same for a 86 or 89???

The drivers side suspension looks identical to the passenger side...it's a mystery why the clearance between the tire and upper control is about a 1/4" on the passenger side but rubs on the drivers side. Is the clearance typically different between the passenger side and driver side?

In theory I think my Westy has stock 14" steel wheels. My current thought is maybe one of the wheels got replaced with a different one and different offset. I'll swap wheels around tomorrow to see if that reveals anything.

Steve

Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:07 am

As DC said, you can adjust the camber into a ballpark range. Just realize the suspension will settle, so set it to what looks right, roll the van forward and back a little, then take a look at the setting. I found that the camber will be more angled once you settle it, i.e., if it looks straight up and down when lifted, it will be slightly tilted inward when you settle the suspension. You may have to adjust it a couple of times to get it in the right range. I found when I replaced my upper control arm bushings that the upper control arm bolt, when in place through the washers, will only adjust so far out and so far in, so mine was not able to rotate 360 degrees, it was a limited range of twist. I set mine by eye when I was done, more than a month and 1,000 miles ago, and it has been fine. But I do need to get to an alignment shop to get it spot on.

As for the wheel rubbing, there may be some imperceptible damage somewhere (mm would do it), or like you said, different offsets of the wheels. Maybe swap the two front wheels and see if the problem is then on the other side. I don't believe adjusting anything like camber or toe would cause the rubbing. Passenger side and driver's side geometry should be identical.

Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:22 am

I think that you will find that the upright (spindle) is bent. The clue is the replaced upper control arm. If it was hit hard enough to require a new upper control arm, the likelyhood of the upright being bend is fairly high.

There is not very much clearance between the tire and the upper control arm anyway (when using the stock 14x5.5 ET39 steel wheels). It wouldn't take much a bend to close up the gap. Seeing the bend with the naked eye would be nearly impossible, especially with the suspension completely assembled.

Adjusting the camber will gain little if any clearance between the tire and upper control arm (as you found out) because they move together, "hinged" at the upper balljoint.

If your looking for a quick "fix", you could run a 5-10mm spacer on both front wheels until figure the rest out. You could also grind/smash/hit the outer lip on the upper control arm in enough to gain some clearance. Although that sounds a little destructive, that outer lip doesn't realy serve a real purpose and can be manipulated slightly without any structural issues. I have done this on my own personal van to gain a little clearance for some wide wheels.

Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:01 am

loogy wrote: I think that you will find that the upright (spindle) is bent. The clue is the replaced upper control arm. If it was hit hard enough to require a new upper control arm, the likelyhood of the upright being bend is fairly high.

I'll bet you are right.
Also keep in mind that while a few degrees off in the camber won't be a big deal, every time you change the upper pivot position you change the toe in.
And that seems to be real crucial to good steering control.
So, unless you want to go to some work to make a trammel guage, leave it to your local front end shop.
Luckily, the very best shop around here is only about 2 miles away. So I just pack my bicycle and ride home. I sorta think the techs might do a better job if they know there is less pressure to get it done soon.
Also, I always hand the tech a $10 or $20 when I pick it up. I figure very few auto customers tip the techs and it gets me to his very best service next time. Money well spent.
Al
Al

Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:02 am

The bent spindle theory makes sense to me. Question, is there a particular trick to figuring out if it's bent? Also any guess on where it would most likely bend? Seems like it would be the arm that goes to the upper ball joint or is it likely that the spindle that the hub rides on is bent?

If I can get the spindle off I might be able to put it in the press and gain a couple millimeters in the right direction.

Thanks for the help.

Steve

Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:46 pm

Using a straight edge resting on the wheel/hub mounting face, measure horizontally from the said straight edge to the center of the threaded stud on the ball joint. Do both sides and compare. Be sure that you are measuring from the same distance above the wheel/hub mounting face centerline on both sides to ensure accuracy. The bend will most likely be fairly subtle.

As for bending it back, I wouldn't do it. Being bent once is bad enough. Being bent twice just asking for trouble.

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:30 pm

i recently found a replacement for an "impossible to bend" syncro spindle. you have no idea how many people said it was impossible to bend that and i have something else wrong. well after F'n around trying everything else i went to a local shop that had a parts syncro and swapped spindles. what do you know, i can now adjust my camber and got it aligned properly. (i could physically see it was way off on camber when kicked all the way out)

and agreed, do not try to straighten bent suspension components

Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:24 pm

Good clues and tips guys. I've measure the upper arm on the spindle and thankfully I think it is pretty true. After comparing both sides the problem spot seems to be the ball joint. The joint itself seems tight but I get a 1/4" difference in my measurements once I get above the ball joint. It's almost as if the ball joint shaft is bent. I searched but have found any info on bent ball joints. I am assuming this is not a problem spot and I may get the privilege of being the first with a bent ball joint.

The wheels did check out to be the seem so I think it is just something in the suspension.

Off to beat out the ball joint.

Steve

Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:01 pm

The ball joint ended up looking fine. GoWesty has a brand new spindle in the mail to me so I'll see if what that reveals. For now I've added 3mm thick washers as spacers between the wheel and hub to gain rub free clearance. Did a test drive and nothing rubs, with that were off on our trip. I'll update the thread once I figure out what is out of whack.

Steve